Is [your martial art] good for a "real fight"?

[skribs]

I thought this was a really good video on the "what martial art is best?" discussion, specifically from the perspective of a BJJ guy, answering "is BJJ effective in a real fight". I'm only about 6 minutes in so far, but I think he's done a really good job of breaking down the discussion on what is a "real fight" and how important BJJ (or any other martial art, or a gun) is going to be.

So far, the thesis is that martial arts are tools, and there's a lot of different situations, in which sometimes any weapon or art is a tool that fits the job, and sometimes it's not. I think it's a very grounded, humble, reasonable approach to take.

 

[Hot Lunch]

Interesting video. He speaks of people resorting to pulling guard, since that's how they train.

At the school where I train, they highly encourage the judo training (which is specifically what I went there for in the first place, but walked out signed up for everything). They want us to be trained in the takedowns. So the problems he's pointing out, I wouldn't have to worry about.

In both the The Little Black Book of Violence and The Big Bloody Book of Violence, they referenced a situation where there was man who trained in gun disarms, and he did this through extreme repetition. He would disarm his partner, and then hand the gun back to him.

The time for him to use that training eventually came. They happened to be in a convenience store while it was being robbed by a gunman. He successfully disarms the gunman. But what does he do, right after he disarms him? He handed the gun right back to the gunman.

I am conscious of the fact that in a real scenario, if you're grappling on the ground, the other person is going to be striking. That changes things up significantly.

 

[drop bear]

I thought this was a really good video on the "what martial art is best?" discussion, specifically from the perspective of a BJJ guy, answering "is BJJ effective in a real fight". I'm only about 6 minutes in so far, but I think he's done a really good job of breaking down the discussion on what is a "real fight" and how important BJJ (or any other martial art, or a gun) is going to be.

So far, the thesis is that martial arts are tools, and there's a lot of different situations, in which sometimes any weapon or art is a tool that fits the job, and sometimes it's not. I think it's a very grounded, humble, reasonable approach to take.

They all fit. If you can actually do the thing you train to people who don't want them done to you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I didn't like the video. The part that I didn't like is all of the legal thought in what he is saying. If you are in a situation where a fight is about to break out and you have time to think about all of the legal stuff, then just de-escalate and remove yourself from the scene. Do I think about legal issues yes. But I think about stuff like that pre-conflict. That's the stuff that I think of before a conflict exists. Have I ever thought about the legal consequences when the conflict occured? Heck no. Why? Because I'm either focusing on getting out of the conflict without fighting or I'm gearing up for that incoming attack. I do not have time, nor will I spend time trying to think if I should dial up my attack or go strong.

1. I have no idea if the person in front of me can or will beat me up. That's just a reality. For me to assume that I can win the fight is not the best way to approach conflict. There is always a chance to lose a fight.

2. I don't waste opportunity. I don't think. "I'll hit him soft and if he keeps going then I'll hit him harder." I wouldn't even do that if I knew BJJ. Get in show your strength right off the back. If I can get someone to fear my strength and doubt their own then the sooner the better. Giving your attacker that hope that they can get take you is just nuts.

I've been in so many conflicts where the person who wanted to fight me didn't Why? Because I made that person concern about my strength and certainty while making him doubt his own. The best thing about this is that I don't need to be aggressive to make this work. Someone gets angry at me, puffs up, and I remain calm and steady with my emotions (all of them) makes a person uneasy. It shows that I'm not afraid and I'm not going to back down and it brings into question "Why am I not afraid when so many others were?" Being a hard person to read like that works wonders. It's like trying to deal with snake that you don't know if it's dangerous or not. Or dealing with a dog that you don't know if they will bite or not.

Maybe I didn't watch the video carefully since I'm getting ready to go to the gym. Maybe I'll watch it again. My whole thing is, If you are being attacked or in danger then your head better be in that fight. If you want to dial it back? Then do so when you see that it's safe to do so.

Anyway. off to training.

 

[skribs]

I didn't like the video. The part that I didn't like is all of the legal thought in what he is saying

Yeah I hadn't gotten to that part yet when I posted this. It kind of reminded me of my recent Hapkido experience, where the guy is telling us that "Hapkido is for self-defense only" while he's got advanced students on the other side of the mat doing jump split kicks.

Especially considering that there are plenty of examples of throws, chokes, and pins resulting in death or permanent brain damage.

 

[marvin8]

So far, the thesis is that martial arts are tools, and there's a lot of different situations, in which sometimes any weapon or art is a tool that fits the job, and sometimes it's not.

Which is why it's better to have more "tools" in kicking, striking, wrestling and locking in all ranges, rather than only BJJ skills.

I think it's a very grounded, humble, reasonable approach to take.

He's promoting his courses, "BUY MY BJJ COURSES!" At 7:35, he says there is data that fights end up on the ground, Louis Martin interview. However in "The myth of 90 percent of fights end up on the ground," Wim says there is misrepresentation of this type of data.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Especially considering that there are plenty of examples of throws, chokes, and pins resulting in death or permanent brain damage.

This is true.

Recently in the US, a person died on the subway from a choke.. But like Marvin8 said. The guy is selling his dvd.

 

[mograph]

Especially considering that there are plenty of examples of throws, chokes, and pins resulting in death or permanent brain damage.

Our heads are so fragile. Sometimes it's one good fall with skull-to-pavement that does you in. I know someone who was hit by the boom on a sailboat, and her life has changed: she can no longer work, and her judgement has been badly impaired. Another person received a brain injury in a car accident, and can't concentrate long enough to hold down a job, and has to rest after we meet for lunch. She was a dynamic real estate agent before the accident.

My hot take: people who like real "street" fighting (not sparring) are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma. The well-adjusted martial artist hates the idea of a real fight, and wants to end it quickly, or better, not engage at all. Ending it quickly is not for ego, but to minimize the time spent fighting to reduce the likelihood of legal entanglements or tragic accidents.

No, I've never been in a real fight, which either means I'm a coward, or my avoidance, deflection, and de-escalation techniques have worked so far. Or maybe I'm in the sweet spot: too old to be a threat, but not so old to be an easy target.

 

[patientcrista]

Our heads are so fragile. Sometimes it's one good fall with skull-to-pavement that does you in. I know someone who was hit by the boom on a sailboat, and her life has changed: she can no longer work, and her judgement has been badly impaired. Another person received a brain injury in a car accident, and can't concentrate long enough to hold down a job, and has to rest after we meet for lunch. She was a dynamic real estate agent before the accident.

My hot take: people who like real "street" fighting (not sparring) are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma. The well-adjusted martial artist hates the idea of a real fight, and wants to end it quickly, or better, not engage at all. Ending it quickly is not for ego, but to minimize the time spent fighting to reduce the likelihood of legal entanglements or tragic accidents.

No, I've never been in a real fight, which either means I'm a coward, or my avoidance, deflection, and de-escalation techniques have worked so far. Or maybe I'm in the sweet spot: too old to be a threat, but not so old to be an easy target.

 

[EdwardA]

threat, but not so old to be an easy target.

My hot take: people who like real "street" fighting (not sparring) are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma. The well-adjusted martial artist hates the idea of a real fight, and wants to end it quickly, or better, not engage at all. Ending it quickly is not for ego, but to minimize the time spent fighting to reduce the likelihood of legal entanglements or tragic accidents.

That's an extremely naive point of view. Yeah, from 20 to 35 I had about 40 street fights. From poor economies like during the S&L crisis and others, I ended up homeless on and off several times. What do you suppose goes on in cities at night, a caring nice time? When you're facing 2-3 armed gang members you'd better do something hard and fast, it the length of time while they're pulling their weapons out of there pockets. No time to think of anything. I was fortunate I was very well trained from 14 on. I wasn't delusional or looking for fights. Not everybody has the wonderful time you seem to think.

Eventually I stabilized my career and had a successful life away from the mean streets that exists in most cities. There's a lot of people that never make it back...from homelessness. It's a very hard thing to go thru.

 

[mograph]

That's an extremely naive point of view. Yeah, from 20 to 35 I had about 40 street fights. From poor economies like during the S&L crisis and others, I ended up homeless on and off several times. What do you suppose goes on in cities at night, a caring nice time? When you're facing 2-3 armed gang members you'd better do something hard and fast, it the length of time while they're pulling their weapons out of there pockets. No time to think of anything. I was fortunate I was very well trained from 14 on. I wasn't delusional or looking for fights. Not everybody has the wonderful time you seem to think.

I did not state that street fights are rare or unusual , or that everybody has a wonderful time (where did you get that?), but that people who like real "street fighting" are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma, and that the well-adjusted martial artist hates the idea of a real fight, and wants to end it quickly, or better, not engage at all.

mograph said:
My hot take: people who like real "street" fighting (not sparring) are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma. The well-adjusted martial artist hates the idea of a real fight, and wants to end it quickly, or better, not engage at all. Ending it quickly is not for ego, but to minimize the time spent fighting to reduce the likelihood of legal entanglements or tragic accidents.

Compare the next two quotes:

mograph said:
The well-adjusted martial artist hates the idea of a real fight, and wants to end it quickly, or better, not engage at all. Ending it quickly is not for ego, but to minimize the time spent fighting to reduce the likelihood of legal entanglements or tragic accidents.

When you're facing 2-3 armed gang members you'd better do something hard and fast, it the length of time while they're pulling their weapons out of there pockets. No time to think of anything.

Judging by your response, you seem to be agreeing with my points as I made them: that you, a well-adjusted martial artist, don't enjoy fighting.

I get it. You had a hard life. But you agree with me: nobody sane wants to fight.

 

[EdwardA]

I did not state that street fights are rare or unusual , or that everybody has a wonderful time (where did you get that?), but that people who like real "street fighting" are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma, and that the well-adjusted martial artist hates the idea of a real fight, and wants to end it quickly, or better, not engage at all.

Compare the next two quotes:

Judging by your response, you seem to be agreeing with my points as I made them: that you, a well-adjusted martial artist, don't enjoy fighting.

I get it. You had a hard life. But you agree with me: nobody sane wants to fight.

Calling people delusional is not a judgement you can make. It's a broad statement that is stereotypical, and demeaning without regard to many circumstances. Who is well adjusted? It's more likely that some people are sheltered and some people get the full force of society early with no support. The only reason I was able to train intensly, with my instructor from 14 to 23 was because he never charged me a dime, the entire time. He never said anything about it even with a school to support....tho, he got an assistant instructor out of the deal. I don't know if it was his plan. One day he told me, you lead the class

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Calling people delusional is not a judgement you can make. It's a broad statement that is stereotypical, and demeaning without regard to many circumstances. Who is well adjusted? It's more likely that some people are sheltered and some people get the full force of society early with no support. The only reason I was able to train intensly, with my instructor from 14 to 23 was because he never charged me a dime, the entire time. He never said anything about it even with a school to support....tho, he got an assistant instructor out of the deal. I don't know if it was his plan. One day he told me, you lead the class

So do you think people who actively like getting into street fights are normal? Not those who get into them, or have to get into them, but the ones who just genuinely enjoy them.

 

[EdwardA]

So do you think people who actively like getting into street fights are normal? Not those who get into them, or have to get into them, but the ones who just genuinely enjoy them.

I think there's all kinds of people that individually, behave differently for their own reasons and experience. I'm extremely against trying to define people in groups. Even in groups there are always people that are different. I've had to stand up to groups, and have stopped their aggression toward me by getting them to disagree with each other. Not very many times, because most offen there's no build up. Just surprise, we're gonna get your ace.

I wouldn't define anyone without knowing their own actual reason. Everybody's different. For somebody that grows up in a ghetto or project, with gangs, fighting is normal and expected.

From a personal standpoint, I don't really care that much, I had to deal with it, but I did certainly get to know how they did things...and knew some nice people that lived in those places that didn't behave like that at all. Some times they took me there to meet family and friends. That didn't always go well.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I wouldn't define anyone without knowing their own actual reason. Everybody's different. For somebody that grows up in a ghetto or project, with gangs, fighting is normal and expected.

He was referring only to people that have a very specific reason. So you do know the actual reason. It's that they enjoy fighting. Not that it's needed to survive, not that it's normalized, just that they actively enjoy it.

 

[EdwardA]

He was referring only to people that have a very specific reason. So you do know the actual reason. It's that they enjoy fighting. Not that it's needed to survive, not that it's normalized, just that they actively enjoy it.

Quoated;

"My hot take: people who like real "street" fighting (not sparring) are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma."

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Quoated;

"My hot take: people who like real "street" fighting (not sparring) are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma."

Take my previous post, and replace the word enjoy with like. Does not change the meaning of my post.

 

[EdwardA]

"Take my previous post, and replace the word enjoy with like. Does not change the meaning of my post."

I disagree with defining groups of people one way or the other. Whenever you say people or indicate a group, and add a definition there's always a section of people that don't fit that definition. It's ok, I don't expect anybody to agree. I got used to that a very long time ago.

 

[JowGaWolf]

"Take my previous post, and replace the word enjoy with like. Does not change the meaning of my post."

I disagree with defining groups of people one way or the other. Whenever you say people or indicate a group, and add a definition there's always a section of people that don't fit that definition. It's ok, I don't expect anybody to agree. I got used to that a very long time ago.

I'm fine with defining groups of people. The assumption should be that there are always exceptions. I think it's fine when highlighting a majority. Issues don't normally arise until it is being pushed as ALL things or all people.

If someone doesn't assume that there are exceptions then that's where the clarification needs to come in. You can do this at the beginning of the statement, end of a statement, or as a response. Or you can wait for someone to point out the exceptions.

While we are individuals we still form groups and have group behaviors. Martialtalk is an example of that and other martial art groups probably have similar conversations about self defense, fighting, MMA etc

 

[Steve]

"Take my previous post, and replace the word enjoy with like. Does not change the meaning of my post."

I disagree with defining groups of people one way or the other. Whenever you say people or indicate a group, and add a definition there's always a section of people that don't fit that definition. It's ok, I don't expect anybody to agree. I got used to that a very long time ago.

Digging through this thread, I may have completely missed the points involved, and if so, just disregard. It's fine.

I'm okay with defining groups of people based on behaviors and motivations. But I think you make a good point in that it is the behavior and not the people that are problematic.

Some examples of behaviors I believe are universally bad, and people who do them are best avoided:

• People who enjoy hurting other people.
• People who abuse animals.
• People who exploit vulnerable people for personal gain.
• People who abuse power.

So, when I read the statement, "My hot take: people who like real "street" fighting (not sparring) are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma." I think that's analogous to "People who enjoy hurting other people," and would agree with him that it's problematic behavior.

And, I think you make a good point that stereotyping people isn't very helpful. For example, someone who enjoys street fighting now may overcome this anti-social behavior down the road. It's about the behavior, not the person.

All that to say, I think both sides of this argument are making good points that are not necessarily contradictory. As I said at the outset, I may be completely misunderstanding what y'all are trying to say, and if so, my bad.