Anti-grappling.

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by K-man, Oct 10, 2014.

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  1. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Living here in Seattle, my plan is just to not have an earthquake. I know we're due a big one up here, and I also know that they suggest having an emergency kit with water, food, flashlight and other essentials in case there is one. But, my plan is to just not have an earthquake. Of course, if there is a bad earthquake, I'm screwed because my plan really isn't a plan.
    The injury thing is ridiculous. I wish you'd just let that go. There's nothing to suggest that Stephen Hayes has a hidden disability in that video.

    Regarding training to avoid the ground, that's been addressed several times and summarized by many different posters. The gist of it is that it can work very well, provided that the system was developed outside of a vacuum, at least in consultation with competent grapplers, and instructed by people who know what they're doing.

    Going back to the Hayes video and others, the issue isn't that people are training specifically to counter BJJ or other ground fighting styles. Nor is there any problem with the idea that "the ground" isn't a good place to be in a fight. The disconnect is whether or not anti-grappling is a form of grappling. Most people believe that it is grappling, and so to be an effective anti-grappler, you really need some fundamental skills as a grappler. Avoiding the takedown, improving your position on the ground so that you can regain your feet, and protecting yourself while on the ground are all grappling skills. So, if you are a kung fu guy and just invent your own style, you're likely to come up with techniques like the Hayes sweep to a leg lock, that look good on paper, but won't actually work.

    That's it. The grappling contingent here has shown some examples of wing chun guys who do seem to be teaching competent anti-grappling. The difference being that they actually consult with grapplers, and so their anti-grappling looks fundamentally different.
     
  2. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I didnt "accuse" you of anything. I said its the internet stranger things have happened.

    Im not sure what you think I havent accepted? I agreed it wasnt the best technique. I said its not a FACT it could never work. If your expert opinion is its a fact it could never work well that is false. I dont lump anyone into any group didnt mean to hurt your feelings but I didnt realize it was Steves way or else (well I guess I did know Ive been here long enough). Very well sir You won the internets for the day Congrats Sir :wink2:
     
  3. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    Well Ive made it this far in life with never ending up in the guard so.......I also never said I couldnt get out I do dabble in BJJ and Judo. The simple fact is I plan on avoiding any physical confrontation period. Its not hard to do. I havent been in a fight since I got out of the military other then at work.
    Never said he was injured I said you dont know the whole story from a 3 min clip. You let it go if you want you brought it up again
    right more internet experts got it.
    ok
    ok
    ok

    Ive never said anything different. Hanzo came in making reckless comments about a man and his style. At first he refused to provide any technical reasons just that he and his teacher had a good laugh at his expense. Then said his opinion is a FACT. Thats nonsense. I found his comments distasteful and rude so I told him. Then we had a conversation (which is what we do on a forum) about the techniqe between several grapplers about the technique which I dont disagree with. Even still its not a FACT it could never work.
     
  4. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, no need to waste more pixels on the "fact" vs "opinion" sidetrack as far as I'm concerned.

    Just about everything we say here is an opinion. Some opinions are better informed than others. Some folks feel comfortable labeling very well-founded opinions as facts, others do not. I don't care that much either way.

    As far as whether a technique "could never work" or not - it's really a matter of percentages. No technique works all the time. Every technique can conceivably work given the right circumstances. A really, really good technique might work 70% of the time in a broad range of scenarios. A really, really bad technique might only work under very limited circumstances and even then have a 5% chance of improving your situation and a 50% chance of worsening your situation. Most techniques fall in-between those extremes. You can argue about whether or not it's sensible to say those really bad techniques could never work, but I don't think it's worth getting heated up over.
     
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  5. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    It's funny to me that on one hand you say you agree with me, but on the other suggest I'm a fraud and can't manage to avoid childish insults. It's not "Steve's" way. It's bio mechanics and a basic understanding of the position. Heck, you just said you agree with me, yourself.

    My feelings aren't hurt. I just genuinely don't understand you. You contradict yourself from one sentence to the next, you agree with me, but then insult me. You acknowledge that I'm right and then tell me I'm a fraud. You say you never disagreed with me, and then tell me I'm still wrong.

    It's not hurt feelings. It's confusion.

    For what it's worth, that the technique is fatally flawed. If someone could make that technique work, it would be in spite of the technique, and not because of it.

    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

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    Double post
     
  7. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don't think that ballen0351 is seriously pushing the idea that you (or I or any of us) is particularly likely to be a fraud. I think he's just pointing out that this is the internet and for all he knows, we're all dogs.

    Personally, I have a certain degree of confidence in my ability to guess whether particular posters here are as knowledgeable as they say they are. It's an educated guess - but it's still just a guess. The farther the style being discussed gets from my experience, the less educated my guesses get. If we had a bunch of Choy Li Fut practitioners arguing over some esoteric aspect of CMA, I wouldn't necessarily know whether or not I could accept all their claims of being experts on the subject.
     
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  8. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

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    That was a bit ruff. :)
     
  9. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Well, it seemed folks were getting a little hot under the collar.
     
  10. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    I never called anyone a fraud I said it's the internet for all you know I'm a 12 year old girl or a 89 year old man. So when someone makes claims of any "expertise" I don't give it the same standing I would. If I personally knew you. Not saying your a fraud I just view internet forums with a grain of salt. It's not that bad here but other forums I frequent like Officer.com have a high number of wanna be posters. Some are good some are not. I believed Donna for example for a while she or he fooled me. If you take that as me calling you a fraud I apologize. It wansnt the case.
     
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Absolutely false. I said nothing disparaging about Hayes or Toshindo in general.

    Also false. Immediately after posting the initial video, I posted a video critique from Bujinkan exponents who understand ground fighting.

    Like I said, the only way that would work on its intended target is if the person placing you in guard is literally asleep, or purposely letting you lean back so that they can mount and pound you.
     
  12. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    No, you asked how did I know that the Guard wasn't in Toshindo. That was a response to an earlier post where you said that since none of us do Toshindo, we have no right to question Hayes' technique. Please get your story right. :)

    Goju has ground fighting? Since when?

    I don't need to know the goals of Toshindo to know that the goal of the technique in that video is to counter the Guard.

    This is not one of those times.
     
  13. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    You may need to brush up on your reading comprehension
    Umm since it's inception.
    Nonsense
     
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Um no. Simply go back and read through your own responses. I agree that they are a convoluted mess, but you did write them, so you should be able to understand them.

    Let me guess; Hidden in the kata right? :rolleyes:

    So you're continuing to run with your ridiculous and baseless theory that Hayes was somehow disabled or injured during that video?
     
  15. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    umm ok

    here was a shot at Dillman
    here you even admited it





    I can keep going but you get the idea.
     
  16. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    So now your going to bash Goju next huh

    Im done with this nonsense feel free to continue to bash styles if you want
     
  17. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Let's run through this step by step so there's no more confusion;

    The technique isn't sound. That has been established. Hayes and Toshindo was made to look silly because said technique wasn't sound, and it threw into question other aspects of Toshindo instruction.

    Imagine if the opposite occurred? Imagine if Hayes popped up with an effective, flashy, high percentage move against the staple of several grappling styles? The opinion of Toshindo and Ninjutsu in general would be greatly improved.

    Yes, why shouldn't we? Dillman popped up with a ridiculous Chi knockout technique that was utter and complete nonsense. He was criticized, belittled, and his stature in the MA community was greatly diminished.



    Frankly he deserved every bit of it.

    I get the idea that you're being over-emotional and highly defensive for no valid reason.

    Prime example:

    Ah yes, pointing out that its hidden within kata is "bashing" Goju-Ryu.:sadsong:
     
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  18. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    People say Dillman started out as "the real thing", but with some of the questionable stuff he later promoted like the "no touch knockout" I'd say he has only himself to blame for the critism he gets. It's not style bashing to express disapproval of people who make outrageous claims or promote impractical techniques. As long as it's a debate about technique and not a personal attack, I don't see the problem.

    Besides, we can't be so "thin-skinned" people. I may see Hayes as a medeocre martial artist who is more about self promotion and marketing than anything. Others have said the similar stuff about my old Chinese sifu. Sometimes they were right. Not about his being mediocre, but about his shameless self-promotion. So what? People have a right to their opinions as long as they don't cross the line into character assasination.

    Regarding Dillman:
    The videoclip really needs no further comment.

    Edit: Dang, While I was digging this up Hanzou beat me to it. I really have to get faster on the "submit" key!
     
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  19. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

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    doesnt matter this isnt bullshido and style bashing and fraud busting wasnt allowed but maybe it is now I dont know Ive been gone for a few months coaching and started college so perhaps it is now
     
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  20. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, Dillman may have been a talented martial artist in his prime, but at some point he wandered into territory which is either self-delusion or conscious fraud. I'm all for giving people the benefit of the doubt and I respect ballen0351's insistence on doing so. Nevertheless there comes a point where there is no more doubt to give someone the benefit of.

    Edit - I'm not bashing whatever style of karate that Dillman practices. For all I know it's a great system. I'm not even saying that he is necessarily a conscious fraud. I've seen several cases where an instructor and students apparently came to honestly believe that they possessed magical powers through some sort of suggestibility feedback loop. Maybe this is one of those cases. The fact remains that they don't have magical powers.123
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2014
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