Good arts for getting to your gun

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by skribs, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    Bit of backstory on me. When I was around 21-22 I started carrying a firearm for self defense. However, I also read the 21-foot rule, the idea that if someone suddenly pulls a knife and charges you to stab you, if they're within 7 yards they will likely stab you before you can draw your gun and shoot. I read anecdotes on gun forums talking about how someone had to defend themselves with hand-to-hand combat before being able to draw their gun, and that led me to seek martial arts training.

    This was about 5 years ago. I did a search back then for martial arts that would fit what I was looking for: an art to quickly avoid or escape an attack to buy myself the couple of seconds needed to draw my firearm. For example, to block a punch and create space, to avoid being stabbed and gain control of the situation, or to break free from a grab at least enough to draw.

    Of course, my search for the "perfect" martial art pretty much failed, as in my area we basically had taekwondo and MMA, with a karate school or two sprinkled in. So I found a school with a great master and started taking Taekwondo.

    However, just for the sake of my own curiosity, I thought I'd come back to this idea. If your goal is to defend against an attack long enough to draw a firearm, what art(s) would you recommend?

    For example, I think the styles of BJJ and wrestling wouldn't be very good, as the goal of those is to be wrapped up, and they don't create much space. Hapkido, which I am learning at my school (although I'm only an orange belt in HKD and I'm a 2nd degree in TKD) I think would be pretty good, because generally we try to stay standing as we take our attacker to the ground.

    I think that any art which uses a combination of punches and grabs in stand-up would also be pretty good. Traditional Taekwondo self defense skills combined with modern Taekwondo sparring tactics could be a good amalgam for quick defense and gaining space. At the time I did my research, I read of a more obscure Chinese art called Baguazhang which was based primarily on footwork, and thought that would be a perfect fit, except there was nowhere anywhere near me that taught it.

    I'm not going to try to suppose for arts I don't know as much about. I imagine the styles of some arts would be incongruent with the goal of getting to a firearm, whereas others will work very well. So what do you think? What art would fit the style I was looking for back then?
     
  2. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    Practice your draw from concealment. The faster you can draw from concealment, the less time you have to buy.

    The 21 foot rule is for a police officer, meaning gun is on the hip, not concealed. It also requires the officer to stand his ground. If the officer backs up turning (L shape path) that buys him enough time to draw and fire.

    If you do not have your gun on your hip, the distance should be a little further... depending on how much longer it takes you to draw. Simple movement, can buy you the time you need from that distance. Closer in is another story.

    What you are looking to do, is get to your gun. Not defeat the other guy. Avoid, (parry, block, slip...) the first attack, then get behind him. If you are reasonable with your draw, you should then be able to draw as he is turning towards you. Most martial arts talk about avoiding that first attack, getting off the line of attack and getting behind the attacker. You just need to practice those bits, along with drawing your gun. Get an airsoft gun, and a buddy with a practice knife. (maybe some goggles for him too)
     
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  3. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    Yes, this was the goal. Get to the gun, hope that works as a deterrent and the attack stops, and if it doesn't stop, then use the gun until the attack stops. I think some arts are about getting off the line of attack, and others are about taking the person down and pinning them down. Some are clearly designed for unarmed 1-on-1 combat and others are more easily applicable to multiple enemies or using your own weapons.

    I'd rather use a nerf gun than an airsoft gun for this purpose, but I do see the benefits of airsoft. I actually prefer airsoft over .22s for working on shooting fundamentals, because I can practice those in my house.
     
  4. wab25

    wab25 Blue Belt

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    If you can take the other guy down to pin him, that means you avoided his first attack, closed distance and took his balance. Thats enough. Instead of completing the take down and pin, shove him away and off balance while you draw.

    My point is that pretty much whatever art you are taking, you can insert your gun work into. You just need to adjust your mindset. In hand to hand, I take him down, knock him out, break his back... what ever. If I need to get to my gun, the same set ups, entrances and whatever you already study, work just fine. All you need to do, is take his balance and make him turn. That will buy you enough time to draw, if you practice the draw. You don't need to change arts. Bring your gun into the art you are studying. (ask the instructor first ;) )

    You said you study TKD and HKD. Plenty of stuff in either one of those two arts will accomplish what you need, if you practice drawing.

    As an aside, I got to practice that drill - one guy with a concealed gun, defending against a practice knife - with some SWAT team guys, using simunitons. Also got to practice gun disarms with simunitions. From my experience, the more it stings when you get shot, the more effective the training. Its fun too!
     
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    The kinds of techniques generally used in Hapkido and Japanese Jujutsu (and related arts) have a lot of useful transitions for that kind of scenario. Many can be translated into one-handed control to create space and time to draw (assuming drawing is still a good option). Some of the projections lend themselves nicely, if you can get to them (they are generally less available than the takedowns and downward throws).
     
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  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Just a note playing off this, to the OP.

    Get a training gun (bluegun, etc.) replica of your primary carry weapon (and secondary, etc. if you like). Do some drills where you are attacked and need to get to that gun. Actually practice the sequence of creating space and time. It's a bit different from what you do with grappling moves normally, and actually practicing that difference is helpful.
     
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  7. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    I have a wooden gun, but it's basically a kid's toy and in no way represents a real gun. We use those for gun defense (although those are taught at 3rd dan and pretty much nobody at my school has reached 3rd dan without immediately going off to college). I also have an airsoft Walther, which is kinda similar to my carry guns. I'll look into a blue gun version of what I have.

    Of course, I don't carry anymore, as it's not allowed at either job I work at, so I've just gotten out of the habit of doing so. This is more of an academic exercise than anything else.
     
  8. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    You are looking at it backwards. The arts that concentrate on getting you wrapped up also concentrate on getting you clear.

    Just like arts with takedowns have defences and arts with striking has blocks.
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I'm not sure I agree entirely, for this situation, DB. Wrestling and BJJ don't - so far as I know - spend a lot of time on opening and maintaining distance. That distance - actually, the time it allows - is what creates the opportunity to draw. If you're already tied up, then those arts will let you gain control so you can get out of being tied up, but I don't think they are the best approach to getting an opportunity to draw. We could make a decent argument about getting control making the draw unnecessary in a lot of situations, but that wasn't the point of the OP.
     
  10. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    For an academic exercise, anything with a "real" feel and an actual carry holster will work well. Wooden guns are light and you'll fumble them differently than a real-ish gun. For all that, if you can find a serviceable holster (perhaps a generic fit from Uncle Mike's) for the wooden gun, it would be good enough to explore the idea with as a start.
     
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  11. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I believe this a very serious and difficult subject. I've never seen a Martial Art that properly taught firearm training. The problem is usually the Martial Art instructor that is teaching doesn't have the proper background/experience in combat shooting, retention and close quarter tactics concerning the firearm. Most firearm instruction I've seen or experienced in Martial Arts is dangerous bs. And I should know, I did some of that bs for years.

    Being a decent target shooter, or even a really good one, prepares you for target shooting, and NOTHING else.

    I suggest training from firearm instructors. Once past the safety lessons [very, very important] and target shooting, you should seek out a combat shooting instructor. Then spend a good deal of time in weapon retention, then moving on to close quarter disarm and drawing of weapons once engaged. THEN bring what you've learned into your art.

    I've taken some nice courses over the years dealing with grappling with weapons. Guns and knives, accessing either, blocking either. I've found that bjj or any other close in art is far better when trying to learn to stop another person from accessing a weapon.

    Again, a very serious subject.
     
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  12. skribs

    skribs Master Black Belt

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    I did one IDPA competition, which I think out of most pistol competitions is the one best designed for mimicking self defense scenarios. I wasn't making enough money to make it a hobby at the time, though. In fact, since I've started martial arts, I've probably only been shooting 2-3 times, because I simply don't have the time anymore.

    I'm pretty sure my Master is one of the few that if he wanted to incorporate firearm use into his curriculum, would be more than capable of doing so.

    I'm not going to argue against this. However, in the scenario I'm looking at, the attacker already has a weapon (or doesn't have one and is just trying to sucker punch me. Useful information to know, but not exactly relevant to this context IMO.
     
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  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    just learning this would be worth doing wrestling.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2018
  14. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Don't over complicate it.

    Just learn to draw and fire while on the move along with learning some firearm retention methods and then combine that with your current MA training. You don't need a special art that combines it all.
     
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  15. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Firearms training with a firearms instructor or a system that has firearms instructor's in it is the way to go. In IRT we have multiple firearms instructor's in it as well as myself and that makes a difference. Systems that do better with this are typically weapon bearing systems such as FMA, Budo Taijutsu, etc. However, like Buka above mentioned there have been many people who have taught firearm related material in martial arts and the vast majority of it has been just awful. Train with firearms instructors as they are specialists in that field and typically have sound training. However, also understand that there are some terrible firearms instructors out there. You really need to do some research before to ensure that you are training with someone that knows their material!
     
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  16. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    r[QUITE="skribs, post: 1883595, member: 31615"]Bit of backstory on me. When I was around 21-22 I started carrying a firearm for self defense. However, I also read the 21-foot rule, the idea that if someone suddenly pulls a knife and charges you to stab you, if they're within 7 yards they will likely stab you before you can draw your gun and shoot. I read anecdotes on gun forums talking about how someone had to defend themselves with hand-to-hand combat before being able to draw their gun, and that led me to seek martial arts training.

    This was about 5 years ago. I did a search back then for martial arts that would fit what I was looking for: an art to quickly avoid or escape an attack to buy myself the couple of seconds needed to draw my firearm. For example, to block a punch and create space, to avoid being stabbed and gain control of the situation, or to break free from a grab at least enough to draw.

    Of course, my search for the "perfect" martial art pretty much failed, as in my area we basically had taekwondo and MMA, with a karate school or two sprinkled in. So I found a school with a great master and started taking Taekwondo.

    However, just for the sake of my own curiosity, I thought I'd come back to this idea. If your goal is to defend against an attack long enough to draw a firearm, what art(s) would you recommend?

    For example, I think the styles of BJJ and wrestling wouldn't be very good, as the goal of those is to be wrapped up, and they don't create much space. Hapkido, which I am learning at my school (although I'm only an orange belt in HKD and I'm a 2nd degree in TKD) I think would be pretty good, because generally we try to stay standing as we take our attacker to the ground.

    I think that any art which uses a combination of punches and grabs in stand-up would also be pretty good. Traditional Taekwondo self defense skills combined with modern Taekwondo sparring tactics could be a good amalgam for quick defense and gaining space. At the time I did my research, I read of a more obscure Chinese art called Baguazhang which was based primarily on footwork, and thought that would be a perfect fit, except there was nowhere anywhere near me that taught it.

    I'm not going to try to suppose for arts I don't know as much about. I imagine the styles of some arts would be incongruent with the goal of getting to a firearm, whereas others will work very well. So what do you think? What art would fit the style I was looking for back then?[/QUOTE]

    ? Surely, if you can tie your attacker up you don't need to shoot him?
     
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  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    I didn't watch all of them, but here's my quick take:

    The first one does show some good distance management if you're on the ground and they're standing. Actually enough space and control there to safely draw, though you'd have to extract your legs (not a problem with the video, just a problem to be solved in the situation) before you could safely deploy it. This creation of safe space for drawing is what I'm talking about. If you're on the ground, I doubt there's anything as good as BJJ for training that creation/maintenance of space, but I wouldn't expect it to be as effective (for that task) when standing and the other guy is coming in with a weapon. Pair it with striking (MMA) and raise the skill level sufficiently, and it probably works better for that purpose, but I think JJJ and even Judo may be easier to translate to that use.

    The second didn't show any separation that would create a good (IMO) opportunity to draw, unless I missed it in my quick review. See my next comment for clarification.

    The third one, I'm really not wild about where he showed the draw happening. There's a hand (that doesn't belong to him) right next to that draw. The gun is safer in the holster in that condition. I'd rather wrestle with someone who's trying to draw my gun from the holster (easier to retain when it's in the holster) than wrestle with someone who's trying to take it from my hand (and has control of that wrist). So, if their hand is that close, the gun stays in the holster, as a general rule. Others with more gun retention training may have a different view.
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Depends on the situation. If it's only one, I definitely agree. If you can tie him up (BJJ, Judo, and wrestling seem good candidates for that), then the gun may not be necessary. I'd be inclined toward BJJ and Judo along those thought lines, because I know how they approach hand/arm control. There may be an analog in wrestling, but I know less about it, so can't speak to that.
     
  19. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    ? Surely, if you can tie your attacker up you don't need to shoot him?[/QUOTE]

    If you can control your attacker you can basically do whatever the hell you want.
     
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  20. jobo

    jobo Senior Master

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    don't disagree with any of that!

    but the proposition in the op , is that 7 yards say 3 seconds isn't enough to draw your gun and fire , so you need ma to give you more time, there fore it follows that what ever ma you choose will need to gie you more than 3 seconds breathing space, ie , you knock them out for 5 seconds, knock them over, break a leg of some,such or put them in a hold of some sort. Any of which if you achieve mean there is no longer a need to draw and fire, and if you don't achieve means you get stabbed,, so the whole thing about a gun, becomes a academic discussion
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2018
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