Is [your martial art] good for a "real fight"?

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's ok, I don't expect anybody to agree. I got used to that a very long time ago.

Sometimes I thought I was the only person on this planet who feels this way.

There's a lot of people that never make it back...from homelessness. It's a very hard thing to go thru.

I was in homeless situation for 3 months. I worked 2 jobs in the summer. I slept on the Hudson River bank in NYC so I could save money for my next semester tuition. I agree it's a very hard thing to go through.

After that 3 months, I felt I could survive any place on earth.

 

[BobY777]

Interesting video. He speaks of people resorting to pulling guard, since that's how they train.

At the school where I train, they highly encourage the judo training (which is specifically what I went there for in the first place, but walked out signed up for everything). They want us to be trained in the takedowns. So the problems he's pointing out, I wouldn't have to worry about.

In both the The Little Black Book of Violence and The Big Bloody Book of Violence, they referenced a situation where there was man who trained in gun disarms, and he did this through extreme repetition. He would disarm his partner, and then hand the gun back to him.

The time for him to use that training eventually came. They happened to be in a convenience store while it was being robbed by a gunman. He successfully disarms the gunman. But what does he do, right after he disarms him? He handed the gun right back to the gunman.

I am conscious of the fact that in a real scenario, if you're grappling on the ground, the other person is going to be striking. That changes things up significantly.

Also grappling is super risky cause the other person may have hidden weapons.

I do Scandinavian defendo , which is meant for civilian self defence, army close quarters combat and security professionals. (Three different branches but essentially the same style)

It should work in a fight. It's it's sole purpose .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Also grappling is super risky cause the other person may have hidden weapons.

This is why the take down and run away should be integrated together.

 

[drop bear]

I thought this was a really good video on the "what martial art is best?" discussion, specifically from the perspective of a BJJ guy, answering "is BJJ effective in a real fight". I'm only about 6 minutes in so far, but I think he's done a really good job of breaking down the discussion on what is a "real fight" and how important BJJ (or any other martial art, or a gun) is going to be.

So far, the thesis is that martial arts are tools, and there's a lot of different situations, in which sometimes any weapon or art is a tool that fits the job, and sometimes it's not. I think it's a very grounded, humble, reasonable approach to take.

The thing is people don't look at this right. A fight is not really a person using BJJ.

It is solving a bunch of problems using elements of BJJ (or whatever)

So if I wanted to punch a guy to death. I could just be really good at punching. Or I could be really good at taking someone's back. Both work fine. Both are elements of martial arts. And they are interchangeable ideas. I could switch from one to the other or could just use concepts of one to support the other.

The idea that all of a martial art is used all the time is false.

 

[drop bear]

Also grappling is super risky cause the other person may have hidden weapons.

I do Scandinavian defendo , which is meant for civilian self defence, army close quarters combat and security professionals. (Three different branches but essentially the same style)

It should work in a fight. It's it's sole purpose .

Have you fought someone with it?

 

[mograph]

So, when I read the statement, "My hot take: people who like real "street" fighting (not sparring) are delusional or damaged from childhood trauma." I think that's analogous to "People who enjoy hurting other people," and would agree with him that it's problematic behavior.

And, I think you make a good point that stereotyping people isn't very helpful. For example, someone who enjoys street fighting now may overcome this anti-social behavior down the road. It's about the behavior, not the person.

That's not stereotyping, it's attributing an attitude (liking street fighting) to a psychological characteristic (being delusional) or an experience (childhood trauma).

Are they accurate attributions? I'm willing to give ground in that they might not be delusional.
... but it's very likely they suffered from childhood trauma.

Stereotyping would be claiming that all members of group X (related by something other than attitude or behaviour, e.g. nationality) possess a common characteristic.

• stereotyping: "all Finns (nationality) love to wear sandals with socks"
• not stereotyping: "all people who like to kick dogs (attitude) are cruel"

Can the person change? Possibly. But that doesn't change the fact that right now, if they engage in anti-social behaviour now, they are anti-social now: present tense.
Will they always be anti-social? Maybe, but nowhere did I state that a person will always be one way or the other. That was inferred, but neither stated nor implied.

 

[EdwardA]

Also grappling is super risky cause the other person may have hidden weapons.

I do Scandinavian defendo , which is meant for civilian self defence, army close quarters combat and security professionals. (Three different branches but essentially the same style)

It should work in a fight. It's it's sole purpose .

The problem I have with grappling is time. I think people forget the opponent frequently has a buddy or two trying to sneak up on your backside. I stuck with high movement and added some Akido like technique to more direct the first opponent where I needed him to go. You can still do damage very quicky first. Then he's at the 2nd guys feet....or in the way.

There's always a short period where the unexpected fast strike works well and makes it easier to gain control.

For me it works particularly well because people underestimate what I'm capable of. It's always a big surprise.

 

[EdwardA]

Sometimes I thought I was the only person on this planet who feels this way.


I was in homeless situation for 3 months. I worked 2 jobs in the summer. I slept on the Hudson River bank in NYC so I could save money for my next semester tuition. I agree it's a very hard thing to go through.

After that 3 months, I felt I could survive any place on earth.

There is one place that's worse.

....but I agree with you. I eventually ended up (from 79 on) self employed, working directly for home owners. There were seveal occasions the economy caused them to stop spending. I solved the problem (in 2006) by finding a multimillionaire that decided to renovate 100+ year old adobe hotels into air b&bs. 2009 was no problem. I was working 60 to 70 hours a week by then. I led all his projects....with all expenses paid.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem I have with grappling is time. I think people forget the opponent frequently has a buddy or two trying to sneak up on your backside. I stuck with high movement and added some Akido like technique to more direct the first opponent where I needed him to go. You can still do damage very quicky first. Then he's at the 2nd guys feet....or in the way.

There's always a short period where the unexpected fast strike works well and makes it easier to gain control.

For me it works particularly well because people underestimate what I'm capable of. It's always a big surprise.

Grappling also includes Grappling prevents, Grappling counters, and Grappling escapes. All of which can be done quickly but requires Grappling skills. I suck when it comes to ground fighting but I'm familiar with these areas. Last thing I want to deal with is trying to wrestle two guys off me while being struck.

Grappling also doesn't have to go to the fround. I've seen a few videos of people getting dropped on their heads. In junior high the body slam was pretty much the go to. Quick bear hug to rag doll to slam guy on ground took less than 3 seconds to pull off and that's from non wrestlers. I've don't think I've seen body slam interrupted by hidden attackers before. I've seen people get jumped after the slam but not during it. If it takes less than 3 seconds to slam some one. Then that only leaves his boys 2 seconds to register an react. If they are lurking 5 feet away then they won't be able to one the gap fast enough to stop the slam.

If they are closer than 5 feet then they may blow their cover and be detected.

I respect grappling enough to be cautious that it could end really fast

There was a TMA guy who had a KO on his debut. He threw the guy on his face and KO'ed him. Everyone was surprised how quickly that fight ended.

 

[EdwardA]

Grappling also includes Grappling prevents, Grappling counters, and Grappling escapes. All of which can be done quickly but requires Grappling skills. I suck when it comes to ground fighting but I'm familiar with these areas. Last thing I want to deal with is trying to wrestle two guys off me while being struck.

Grappling also doesn't have to go to the fround. I've seen a few videos of people getting dropped on their heads. In junior high the body slam was pretty much the go to. Quick bear hug to rag doll to slam guy on ground took less than 3 seconds to pull off and that's from non wrestlers. I've don't think I've seen body slam interrupted by hidden attackers before. I've seen people get jumped after the slam but not during it. If it takes less than 3 seconds to slam some one. Then that only leaves his boys 2 seconds to register an react. If they are lurking 5 feet away then they won't be able to one the gap fast enough to stop the slam.

If they are closer than 5 feet then they may blow their cover and be detected.

I respect grappling enough to be cautious that it could end really fast

There was a TMA guy who had a KO on his debut. He threw the guy on his face and KO'ed him. Everyone was surprised how quickly that fight ended.

I started wrestling with a Marine just home from Vietnam when I was 14. Big Sister's boyfriend.

I think every individual has to use what works for them. I have an innate ability to go from seemingly passive to exteme aggression (4-5 blows in a second while in motion) with no indication that I'm going to. 0 body language, 0 posture change, 0 emotional change, etc. Look at my avitar. I draw the yin yang in one center for that very reason. I have no line between passive and agressive. People think I'm very laid back and passive, but i can go explosive in the blink of an eye. I discovered that advantage at a young age. My instructor did too, and helped me develop it further... among other things i was specifically good at.

Everybody should develop what they're personally good at. I was fortunate my instructor saw it and customized my training. Sure, I learned grappling too, but I'm much better at punching right thru their arms.

 

[Cynik75]

..... I have an innate ability to go from seemingly passive to exteme aggression (4-5 blows in a second while in motion) with no indication that I'm going to. 0 body language, 0 posture change, 0 emotional change, etc. Look at my avitar. I draw the yin yang in one center for that very reason. I have no line between passive and agressive. People think I'm very laid back and passive, but i can go explosive in the blink of an eye. ...

So basically you are good at sucker punching. So am I and it makes me not impressed with your skill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's an extremely naive point of view. Yeah, from 20 to 35 I had about 40 street fights. From poor economies like during the S&L crisis and others, I ended up homeless on and off several times. What do you suppose goes on in cities at night, a caring nice time? When you're facing 2-3 armed gang members you'd better do something hard and fast, it the length of time while they're pulling their weapons out of there pockets. No time to think of anything. I was fortunate I was very well trained from 14 on. I wasn't delusional or looking for fights. Not everybody has the wonderful time you seem to think.

Eventually I stabilized my career and had a successful life away from the mean streets that exists in most cities. There's a lot of people that never make it back...from homelessness. It's a very hard thing to go thru.

His comment was about people who like street fighting, not just those who end up in fights.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Calling people delusional is not a judgement you can make. It's a broad statement that is stereotypical, and demeaning without regard to many circumstances. Who is well adjusted? It's more likely that some people are sheltered and some people get the full force of society early with no support. The only reason I was able to train intensly, with my instructor from 14 to 23 was because he never charged me a dime, the entire time. He never said anything about it even with a school to support....tho, he got an assistant instructor out of the deal. I don't know if it was his plan. One day he told me, you lead the class

I disagree. Sure, "delusional" might not be techincally correct (if we were to look at the DSM), but in the colloquial usage, it's probably an apt description of what he's saying. And I think it's a valid opinion about people who enjoy uncontrolled fights that they aren't entirely stable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think there's all kinds of people that individually, behave differently for their own reasons and experience. I'm extremely against trying to define people in groups. Even in groups there are always people that are different. I've had to stand up to groups, and have stopped their aggression toward me by getting them to disagree with each other. Not very many times, because most offen there's no build up. Just surprise, we're gonna get your ace.

I wouldn't define anyone without knowing their own actual reason. Everybody's different. For somebody that grows up in a ghetto or project, with gangs, fighting is normal and expected.

From a personal standpoint, I don't really care that much, I had to deal with it, but I did certainly get to know how they did things...and knew some nice people that lived in those places that didn't behave like that at all. Some times they took me there to meet family and friends. That didn't always go well.

You're still arguing about frequency of fighting, when the original comment was about enjoying it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

"Take my previous post, and replace the word enjoy with like. Does not change the meaning of my post."

I disagree with defining groups of people one way or the other. Whenever you say people or indicate a group, and add a definition there's always a section of people that don't fit that definition. It's ok, I don't expect anybody to agree. I got used to that a very long time ago.

That there are exceptions doesn't make group distinctions irrelevant. If we had to determine everything about an individual without referencing groups, we'd be entirely lost in society. When I deal with bankers, there are some things I know to expect about their behavior and attitudes (though there will be some within the group who don't conform to that expectation). I can do the same wth zipline guides. The groups aren't monolithic, but have common traits that either draw them to those groups or were engendered by the experience within the group.

All that said, it's much easier (and more likely to be accurate) when the "group" is simply a grouping together of people who actually have the shared trait.

So, to say it another way, "a person who enjoys street fighting is unstable". Now we're talking about a single trait and a single person. Make it plural, and nothing changes.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem I have with grappling is time. I think people forget the opponent frequently has a buddy or two trying to sneak up on your backside. I stuck with high movement and added some Akido like technique to more direct the first opponent where I needed him to go. You can still do damage very quicky first. Then he's at the 2nd guys feet....or in the way.

There's always a short period where the unexpected fast strike works well and makes it easier to gain control.

For me it works particularly well because people underestimate what I'm capable of. It's always a big surprise.

I think there's always a strong chance they have a buddy, but in the confrontations many people are liklely to deal with, it's probably not a pair of predators, one backing the other from the shadows. If there are two, they're probably obvious (though not always - could have a buddy sitting over at the bar who jumps in).

 

[EdwardA]

I think there's always a strong chance they have a buddy, but in the confrontations many people are liklely to deal with, it's probably not a pair of predators, one backing the other from the shadows. If there are two, they're probably obvious (though not always - could have a buddy sitting over at the bar who jumps in).

There are gang members that go out in teams of three. It's a tactic they use on purpose with a specific strategy that's planned and sought out, and they have a lot of experience at it. Usually the "soldiers" in their early to mid 20s. They're in training, under orders and told how to do it.

That's what I got to experience, but i was trained for it. If you're successful against them, it gets worse.

 

[EdwardA]

The organization levels have changed some from when I was doing this. It was in a period when Woody Harrelson's dad was hired thru aTexas prison gang to assassinate the Federal Judge, John Wood. Everything in the city where he was assassinated, was being coordinated, even on a local level from the Texas prison.... including the tactic I mentioned above. I was in that city homeless on the street, when it took place. Fortunately at the time, I was traveling around some looking for work, so the gangs didn't get to know me very well.

 

[Hanshi]

I admit to having a violent streak, but stay away from places where fights usually ignite. I hate fighting, and being a Buddhist I attempt to be peaceable all the time. It has been drilled into me over the years by my sensei "weapons first". My training is in the classic Okinawan weapons but also "environmental" weapons; everything is a weapon. Yes, I've come close to initiating violence on a few occasions and I think that simply exuding a willingness can often stop situations before they get out of hand.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There are gang members that go out in teams of three. It's a tactic they use on purpose with a specific strategy that's planned and sought out, and they have a lot of experience at it. Usually the "soldiers" in their early to mid 20s. They're in training, under orders and told how to do it.

That's what I got to experience, but i was trained for it. If you're successful against them, it gets worse.

I didn't say it doesn't happen.