Historical question and/or Statement

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by Datu Tim Hartman, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman Senior Master

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    So I’ve been keeping my opinions to myself for a while. I’ve seen things posted on the net and I’ve let them slide. I’ve been doing a lot of work in the FMA community to try to bring people together and keep the peace. With that said, sometimes I feel the need to speak my mind and question the accuracy of statements and claims. I’ve recently seen this posted on the net:

    I have two questions or issues with this post.

    1. According to GM Atillo’s website, he was born in 1938. That means he was 4 years old when the Japanese invaded the Philippines. I don’t know how much training he could have done with the Saavedra’s at that age. And I doubt that GM Atillo ever trained with the Saavedras since they both died during WWII.

    2. Saavedra Eskrima is not Balintawak, its Saavedra Eskrima. Anciong Bacon modified what he was taught and it evolved into was is now known as Balintawak. Calling it Saavedra’s Balintawak is saying Yip Man’s Jeet Kune Do.

    Now I want to make something very clear. I’m not attacking Atillo. My problem is with the people who may be misinterpreting what he may be saying. Having trained with many different Asian instructors who speak English as a second language, I can see how someone can misunderstand what they are being told. My problem is with people who choose to misinterpret things with the intent of rewriting history.

    Now before everyone jumps all over me saying I don’t know what I’m talking about, let say one thing. I started my Balintawak training in 2000 as a private student of the late GM Ted Buot. Manong Ted was the leading authority on GM Bacon’s original ungrouped method of Balintawak. Manong Ted was the only person to teach in the Balintawak club when GM Anciong wasn’t there.
     
  2. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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  3. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Hello Datu Hartman,

    I want to answer your two questions since I am the person that you are quoting and quite came from my post on the SE Asian Blog <http://seasian-martialarts.blogspot.com>
    where I was commenting on the list of newly named Masters, Disciples and Successors-Disciples, that was announced on July 10, 2013 on GM Crispulo Atillo's FB site. I now that you has a much better grasp of the English language than your comments above might suggest. You did quote me correctly. I did write that:

    &#8220;GM Atillo is among the last of the people who knew the Saavedra's, Lorenzo and Doring, personally.
    His art is the closest thing that we have to the original Saavedra Eskrima System, which is also known more popularly as Balintawak Eskrima&#8220;

    I stand by that statement as written and now repeated here. You wrote and I quote: "And I doubt that GM Atillo ever trained with the Saavedras since they both died during WWII." I wrote that he "knew" the Saavedras, not that he had trained with or was trained by either of them. From the time that I first met GM Atillo in 2007, to this day,
    he has NEVER told me that he trained with either Lorenzo or Doring Saavedra. He has consistently stated that his father GM Vincente Atillo was his teacher and his father taught him the Saavedra System of Eskrima. That interpretation was and still is your invention, not mine nor GM Atillo's.

    Back in day, GM Atillo gave an interview to Dr. Ned Napangue, for publication in the Filipino Martial Arts Magazine, Vol.2, NO. 5 (2000) in which he stated:

    "My father Grandmaster Vincente Atillo taught me what he learned from Grandmaster Teodoro Saavedra. I was exposed to stick fighting as early as 6 years old. I had seen adepts like Insong Saavedra, Doring Saavedra, Ansiong Bacon, my father Vincente, Delfin Lopez, practice eskrima. I doubt if my comtemporaries of the Balintawak clan ever witnessed how these men played." (page 13, "Atillo Eskrima"). In the 7 years between that interview and my meeting him for the first time, GM Atillo has never to my knowledge changed with regard to who taught him eskrima. I was correct in stating that he "knew" the Saavedras. Furthermore, GM Atillo stated in the same interview that his father and Doring Saavedra "...were very close friends since their youth. My grandfather was Grandmaster Ansiong Bacon's ninong (Godfather). These people used to practice in our backyard in Ibabano, Mambaling, Cebu City." (page 14).

    That should clear up the matter of who first taught GM Atillo, when and at what age. Furthermore, if you want to raise this age question regarding GM Atillo, shouldn't you also be concerned about the age at which our former GM and teacher, Professor Remy Presas began his arnis training, because his father Jose Presas was involved in training his fellow Filipinos to fight against the Japanese during WWII. If my memory is still functional, Professor, began his training at the age of 6, under his grandfather, Leon Presas.
    Please correct me about that if I have it wrong!

    You have stated the following:

    "2. Saavedra Eskrima is not Balintawak, its Saavedra Eskrima. Anciong Bacon modified what he was taught and it evolved into was is now known as Balintawak. Calling it Saavedra&#8217;s Balintawak is saying Yip Man&#8217;s Jeet Kune Do."

    There is an element of truth in your statement, however, your approach is too simplistic and very self serving. Since GM Ansiong Bacon studied under GGM Lorenzo Saavedra and his nephew Teodoro "Doring" Saavedra, along with Vincente Atillo, Timeteo Marranga and Delfin Lopez, it would seem quite logical and highly probable that what GM Bacon was teacher at a later point in time was in reality a version of Saavedra Eskrima! It is commonly believe that after GM Bacon and others broke away from the Doce Pares Club, the met for practice sessions at Eduardo Baculi's shop located on Balintawak Street near P. Lopez Street in Cebu City. (page 15). According to a number of different sources
    the new club was named after the street on which their practice hall was located and the club members included Bacon, V. Atillo, Lopez and Baculi among others who had trained under the Saavedras. So my question to you is what other source, system or style did GM Bacon have as the basis for his 'new' Balintawak system if it was not what he had been taught by the Saavdras'? You also might want to keep in mind that Venancio Bacon was a nephew of Lorenzo Saavedra and cousin of Teodoro Saavedra. (page 13).


    Please be very explicit and detailed in your assessment as to how and why Saavedra Eskrima is not the root art of Balintawak and exactly how GM Atillo's art is different from what is commonly known in modern times/these days as Balintawak. I'm asking this question because you have seem to be setting yourself up as an expert on Balintawak because as you wrote:

    "Now before everyone jumps all over me saying I don&#8217;t know what I&#8217;m talking about, let say one thing. I started my Balintawak training in 2000 as a private student of the late GM Ted Buot."

    I'm taking the position that you have some information that can help us all. You did come to the "balinatwak party" a bit later than my students and I. Richard Curren, Paul Martin, Tom Verga and myself began exploring Balintawak Arnis back in 1989, when I obtained a video (VHS) tape by Master Henry Jayme, entitled "Arnis: The Balintawak System". He was teaching the Teofilo Velez version of Balintawak. The tape was recorded in Australia with Mr. John Russell as the assistant/uke. A few years later I have an extensive dialogue with Guro Russell and learned about the 6 subsets of Balintawak, including the Atillo Eskrima System of Balintawak. I believe that Mr. Russell has written a book on the Velez version of Balintawak that was published in the late 1990s. Subsequent to the Jayme tape we were able to find out about Sam Buot, Peter Ball, Dom Lopez,
    Michael Zimmer, Bobby Taboada and Crispulo Atillo. We also read a lot of posts and emails that detailed the "politics of Balintawak". Your statement about GM Ted Buot is a portion of that political sie of Balintawak that does not interest me at all, so please avoid that stuff in your reply.

    I'm also going to remind you that between 1994 and 2001, when I was hosting GM Bobby Taboada for 4 summer camps and 5 seminars, that neither you nor nor any of your associates attended those events. I understand conflicting summer camp schedules to a degree but not attending any events is quite a bit to understand since Balintawak is one of the root systems of Modern Arnis under the late Professor Remy Presas.

    I believe that I have addressed the 2 issues that you raised and in some detail. I would truly appreciate a similar type of objective reply devoid of speculations and internal system politics that never really address serious issues.

    Respectfully,

    Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
    Grand Master, Datu, Senior Master ad Principal Teacher,
    Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Asociates


     
  4. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    Dr Barber,

    I take exception to your Politics comments. You say nothing without politics and you play games three levels deep or at least that is what you told me in person.


    I also know form the past that when things look a little tough for you , you want to take it private. I prefer not to do that anymore with you.



    I will review this tomorrow when I have some time and I will respond, with the data and facts that I have been told.
     
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  5. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman Senior Master

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    Then why bother saying anything at all? You're giving people the allusion of connectivity.
     
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  6. Rocky

    Rocky Yellow Belt

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    Hello Doc, its Rocky I got few things I&#8217;d like to address:

    Hello Datu Hartman,

    I want to answer your two questions since I am the person that you are quotingand quite came from my post on the SE Asian Blog <http://seasian-martialarts.blogspot.com>
    where I was commenting on the list of newly named Masters, Disciples andSuccessors-Disciples, that was announced on July 10, 2013 on GM CrispuloAtillo's FB site. I now that you has a much better grasp of the Englishlanguage than your comments above might suggest. You did quote me correctly. Idid write that:

    &#8220;GM Atillo is among the last of the people who knew the Saavedra's, Lorenzo andDoring, personally.
    His art is the closest thing that we have to the original Saavedra EskrimaSystem, which is also known more popularly as Balintawak Eskrima&#8220;

    His art may be close to Saavedras not sure I would ask Tom Bisio since hepretty much inherited San Maguels from Momoy Cannete. How ever how can you sayits Balintawak. Anciong was taught completely different then the Cannetes eventhough they all had the same instructor, now you know damn well this happensall the time you don&#8217;t have to look any further than me, you know that Remytaught me completely different then everyone else. Anciong was in the samesituation. After the brothers were murdered in WWII the Cannetes took over theyinvited Anciong to teach with them it was the Cannetes who changed the name toDoce Paris talk to GM Cocoys people he was just a kid but many years ago hiscamp confirmed this with me his older brothers refered to it as Doce Pares then Momoy did hid own thing calling it Sam Miguel and most people believe HE kept it close to what the Saavedras were doing.. That&#8217;s why Anciongs lineage of Balintawak is andhas always been on good grounds with Doce Pares.


    Back in day, GM Atillo gave an interview to Dr. Ned Napangue, for publicationin the Filipino Martial Arts Magazine,Vol.2, NO. 5 (2000) in which he stated:

    2000 is now back in the Day with Balintawak ?


    "My father Grandmaster Vincente Atillo taught me what he learned fromGrandmaster Teodoro Saavedra. I was exposed to stick fighting as early as 6years old. I had seen adepts like Insong Saavedra, Doring Saavedra, AnsiongBacon, my father Vincente, Delfin Lopez, practice eskrima. I doubt if mycomtemporaries of the Balintawak clan ever witnessed how these menplayed." (page 13, "Atillo Eskrima"). In the 7 years between thatinterview and my meeting him for the first time, GM Atillo has never to myknowledge changed with regard to who taught him eskrima. I was correct instating that he "knew" the Saavedras. Furthermore, GM Atillo statedin the same interview that his father and Doring Saavedra "...were veryclose friends since their youth. My grandfather was Grandmaster Ansiong Bacon'sninong (Godfather). These people used to practice in our backyard in Ibabano,Mambaling, Cebu City." (page 14).

    You have stated the following:

    "2.
    SaavedraEskrima is not Balintawak, its Saavedra Eskrima. Anciong Bacon modified what hewas taught and it evolved into was is now known as Balintawak. Calling itSaavedra&#8217;s Balintawak is saying Yip Man&#8217;s JeetKune Do."

    There is an element of truth in your statement, however, your approach is toosimplistic and very self serving. Since GM Ansiong Bacon studied under GGMLorenzo Saavedra and his nephew Teodoro "Doring" Saavedra, along withVincente Atillo, Timeteo Marranga and Delfin Lopez, it would seem quite logicaland highly probable that what GM Bacon was teacher at a later point in time wasin reality a version of Saavedra Eskrima!

    NO NO NO Anciong was always taught differently the Saavedras took hisdagger away we was always taught different just as I was taught different byRemy. He obviously continued to grow after he left but he was already acompletely different fighter then his contemporaries.




    It is commonly believe that after GM Bacon and othersbroke away from the Doce Pares Club, the met for practice sessions at EduardoBaculi's shop located on Balintawak Street near P. Lopez Street in Cebu City.(page 15). According to a number of different sources
    the new club was named after the street on which their practice hall waslocated and the club members included Bacon, V. Atillo, Lopez and Baculi amongothers who had trained under the Saavedras. So my question to you is what othersource, system or style did GM Bacon have as the basis for his 'new' Balintawaksystem if it was not what he had been taught by the Saavdras'?

    Now you are playing word games Doc&#8230;..You wanna call Anciongs BalintawakSaavedra Balintawak because he was taought by the Saavedras albeit taught differently&#8230;..wellhell then the Saavedras didn&#8217;t do Saavedra style cause they learned fromsomeone else.



    You also mightwant to keep in mind that Venancio Bacon was a nephew of Lorenzo Saavedra andcousin of Teodoro Saavedra. (page 13).
    Even more reason why they may of taught him differently because ofthatrelationship.


    Please be very explicit and detailed in your assessment as to how and whySaavedra Eskrima is not the root art of Balintawak and exactly how GM Atillo'sart is different from what is commonly known in modern times/these days asBalintawak. I'm asking this question because you have seem to be settingyourself up as an expert on Balintawak because as you wrote:

    Teachings from the Saavedras are at the root of Balintawak but, those teachings were vastly different then what they normally taught to others, so while the teachings came from Saavedras they were not what Savvedras referred to as their mainstream art..The Model T may be one of the first Ford cars so technically one could say all Fords have their roots in the Model T but a Mustang is no Model T.

    theposition that you have some information that can help us all. You did come tothe "balinatwak party" a bit later than my students and I. RichardCurren, Paul Martin, Tom Verga and myself began exploring Balintawak Arnis backin 1989, when I obtained a video (VHS) tape by Master Henry Jayme, entitled"Arnis: The Balintawak System". He was teaching the Teofilo Velezversion of Balintawak.
    Kind of thought I had introduced the good folks to Balintawak back in 1986when I was conducting seminars for John Bryant and even earlier what I startedteaching Don Zanghi Balintawak back in 1984 hhhhhmmmm I bought a farm a fewyears ago, unfortunately for some I didn&#8217;t by THE FARM I bought A FARM so Imstill here and still a thorn in some sides!

    The tape wasrecorded in Australia with Mr. John Russell as the assistant/uke. A few yearslater I have an extensive dialogue with Guro Russell and learned about the 6subsets of Balintawak, including the Atillo Eskrima System of Balintawak. Ibelieve that Mr. Russell has written a book on the Velez version of Balintawakthat was published in the late 1990s. Subsequent to the Jayme tape we were ableto find out about Sam Buot, Peter Ball, Dom Lopez,
    Michael Zimmer, Bobby Taboada and Crispulo Atillo. We also read a lot of postsand emails that detailed the "politics of Balintawak".

    I consider Mike Zimmerman a friend and his Instructor Dom Lopez was one ofTddy Buots students. Mike came to Michigan to cross sticks with me, he wasquite surprise at the differences between us I used on Anciongs and Tedsversion when playing he then went to Teds house to pay his respects and tellTed of GM Lopezs joy to find out that Ted was teaching int the U.S the same wayhe AND ONLY HE and Anciong taught back in the P.I.


    Your statementabout GM Ted Buot is a portion of that political sie of Balintawak that doesnot interest me at all, so please avoid that stuff in your reply.

    I take real offense to that #@** statement TED BUOT is ANCIONG BACONSBALINTAWAK GM Tobabada verifies this GM Presas and GM Lopez, Sam Buot does too&#8230;.

    I'm also going to remind you that between 1994 and 2001, when I was hosting GMBobby Taboada for 4 summer camps and 5 seminars, that neither you nor nor anyof your associates attended those events. I understand conflicting summer campschedules to a degree but not attending any events is quite a bit to understandsince Balintawak is one of the root systems of Modern Arnis under the lateProfessor Remy Presas.

    Well I was trying to get all youModern Arnis guys to get involved with Balintawak back in the mid 1980s Ishowed you Abecidario and some basic fundamentals so why didn&#8217;t you takeadvantage of what was offered.

    I believe that I have addressed the 2 issues that you raised and in somedetail. I would truly appreciate a similar type of objective reply devoid ofspeculations and internal system politics that never really address seriousissues.

    Respectfully,

    Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
    Grand Master, Datu, Senior Master ad Principal Teacher,
    Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Asociates

    I believe GM Atillia to probably be one hell of a Modified Balintawak guyand deserving of respect I just think for some reason history is beingre-written I realize this is America and you being a College Professor knowmore then anyone how often history in this county is re-written, I just wish itcould leave Balintawak untouched.

    Its getting late Doc Im not trying to get into more of the Buffalo Bulljust speaking my peace.
    Good to see you still swinging keep it up and take care. Glad you got moreinvolved in Balintawak Origingal Modified Grouped or other there are somephenomenal guys to learn from.
    Take care
    Rocky Pasiwk
    Bacon/Buot&#8217;s Original Balintawak
     
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  7. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Hello Rocky,

    Nice hearing from you. I'm not going to say a whole lot more on this topic. A lot of people have their minds already made up and are willing to even consider any alternatives. I agree that people can and do re-write history, but if one does some good research and applies good logical analysis they can often separate the basics of truth from the most of the self-serving re-writes. I will say this about our relationship, we have always been candid with one another and where we have differences they are out in the open and this is a place where we have differences.
    I'm OK with that and life goes on.

    I am not a balintawak person. I do not have a particular style or system to champion or defend. I left all of that stuff to form my my own association and like it that way. I have students who are using aspects of the Taboada-Velez style, a couple of more who are more adapt with
    the Manong Ted style as advocated through your seminars in Buffalo in the 1990's and David Hatch's videos and I have a couple more people
    who are using the Atillo approach. Personally I see them all as good, useful and helpful.

    I merely corrected Datu Hartman's statement and implication that I did not understand what GM Atillo was saying about who his eskrima instructor was because English is a 2nd language for him. I understood perfectly well what he was saying and I quoted from the FMAM as an added example of him declaring that his father was his eskrima instructor. There is also very little doubt that the Saavadras trained GM Bacon, hence the connection to the Saavedras and balintawak is real. Until someone can show me a reasonable alternative with some documentation, I will continue to see Balintawak under GM Bacon as rooted in Saavdera Eskrima.


    The other thing not talked about in this thread, but which may very well be the reason Datu Hartman posted my comment about GM Atillo knowing the Saavdras and taking it out of context is that GM Atillo posted a listing of disciples and successors. The only thing that list does in my mind is tell us who the GM believes is qualified to carry on his version Balintawak-Saavedra Eskrima in the future. As I see it his list is simply his list and it does not effect any other group of people.

    People may not want to acknowledge or accept that fact that GM Atillo has a connection to Balinatawak, and that Balintawak has a connection to the Saavedras but that is the truth. Are there different variations on the Balintawak scheme? Of course there are and I am not saying that any one of them is better than any other. I'll leave that to others. I've seen enough in videos, literature and in person to know that the disagreements will continue over time. That is the nature of the beast and it won't change no matter what is written here. My students and I have gleaned the information, practiced some of the ideas, adapted things to fit ourselves, without everyone being compelled to follow one method and that won't change either. As for the rest of the stuff - politics - hype - self serving agendas, that is old hat stuff and will also continue.

    So we had a couple of disagreements, OK? Let's be happy and move on.

    I am writing this with great respect for you as my senior in Modren Arnis,


    Sincerely,


    Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
     
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  8. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I have only practiced Balintawak a little bit but It seems to me from an outsider's point of view that GM Atillo should have named his system some thing else. When people think of Balintawak they think of GM Bacon as the founder. By teaching Atillo Balintawak it kind of muddles the water and creates a situation that did not have to be created. I know others have done the same putting their name to Balintawak but..... they have a connection back to Anciong Bacon and that in my mind seems okay. However to call some thing Balintawak without a deep connection to GM Bacon seems wrong or maybe coat tail riding. If he did train with GM Bacon then personally I would not have a problem with him using the name. However, if I am correct that was not the case. Right? I am sure that GM Atillo is a very good martial practitioner and also is a good teacher. I am also sure that practitioners under him are also hard working martial practitioner's too. All are deserving of respect. I just think the naming of his system might have been thought out a bit better. Just my point of view on the matter.
     
  9. Rocky

    Rocky Yellow Belt

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    Doc I agree with what you posted here BUT I did go out to GM Atillios site and his sit does make it sound as if the Atillios and Delphane lopez founded the system with Anciong and by just about every other GM out there this just is not true. I also question the fight withTed because it sounds exactically like the fight between Remy and Boboy in which Remy split his ear open and Delphane threatened to kick Remys *** when Anciong and others told Delphane that Remy was younger and an up and coming damn good fighter and they didn't think he could beat Remy Delphane said if he couldn't beat him with a stick he'd use his 45cal at that point Remy left Cebu. Why would question Delphane setting Ted up in anyway because as his Uncle he was very protective of Ted.

    Now I personally have never met anyone that knows Balintawak that doesn't claim that Anciong was trained by the Saavedras however he was trained different and he alone according to just about everyone including the Cannetes moved to Cebu and named his art Balintawak which is completely different then the openly taught art at the Saavedras club, often referred to as San Meguel and later Doce Pares. I think the proper way to say it is Balintawak has its roots in the personal teaching of Lorenzo Saavedra. If Anciong choose to call it Saavedra Balintawak that would be fine because he created Balintawk, Atillia didn't, now if Atillios says his art is Saavedras and Balintawak that's fine, But Anciong's is just plain Balintawak the art his formed from the training he received from Saavedra. But Anciong continued to evolve too that's why Ted used Abecedario as his fundamentals when Remy was training with Anciong, Anciong had not developed Abecedario yet. In fact I taught Remy Abecedario and he changed it so he could teach it in Seminars but he called it Vecedario, of course we were not talking sooooooo......I don't know Atillio I do know Ted was not happy with many of the claims.

    Maybe Tim is right maybe its a language thing!

    Oh I must correct myself Tom Bisio was one of Momoy Cannetes top guys but Momoy may have left his art to his own son. Anyone interested should learn San Miguel it looks like a very in depth and good art also Doce Pares is well worth learning.

    Again its good to see you still swinging.

    Its kind of funny being called your senior.........makes me sound like the old timer dude when you were actually witness to Magellans defeat, weren't you?




    Rocky
    Bacon/Buot's Original Balintawak
     
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  10. Rocky

    Rocky Yellow Belt

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    Another thing that you touched on Doc was that GM Atillia announce some of his successors. I think that is great and smart it keeps things straight for the future generations kudos to him.

    Rocky
     
  11. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Damn it, Rocky, I asked you not to let that Magellan thing out of the bag! Now some folks are going to be after me to explain the whole Spanish American War thing and the Buffalo Soldier connection to Filipino Boxing and the Mangyan Bolo fighting relationship to the Presas Jungle Bolo and
    Aieta cultural ties to buno and dumog, which I would really prefer to keep on the down low :wink2:

    Let's dialogue privately because we can do it so much more quietly and respectfully between ourselves. I'm still at <email address redacted per 1.5 - jks9199>
    BTW, check out the Balintawak lineage chart at the back of the book "Cebuano Eskrima" and the sections on the Labong Fencing Club, Doce Pares Club, Balintawak Self Defense Club and Original Balintawak Club. The book was written by Dr. Ned Nepangue and another Filipino fellow, whose name escapes my at the moment. They are also involved in the FMA and the book is written from a Filipino perspective, not an American one.
    I'll give you all the details on title, publisher and date in a couple of days when my associate returns the book. I understand that there are some areas where we will disagree, but that's life and it makes for more interesting discussions anyways in my opinion.

    Thanks for joining the thread; and you are still my Modern Arnis, senior...

    Respectfully,

    Jerome
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 23, 2013
  12. jks9199

    jks9199 Administrator Staff Member

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    Folks, MartialTalk is a discussion forum. While there are certainly things that should be handled privately between members, we discourage taking discussions "behind closed doors" unless there's a real reason. Doing so prevents others from learning, and kind of defeats the purpose of a discussion forum. I'm pretty sure that there's room to discuss things publicly and still manage to be respectful. We also discourage posting personal contact info like email addresses for member safety.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2013
  13. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Hello Rocky,

    I completely agree with you on that point. We've seen the mess that usually follows the death of a GM. By making it publicly known
    in advance, there will be little to no need for bickering after GM Atillo leaves the scene. Better yet, in my opinion, by naming a number
    of people as his successors, he has virtually eliminated the "rightful successor" argument for everyone. All of the people named as his
    successors are of equal status in my reading of the document. Maybe some other system GMs will take note of this and follow the
    Atillo method of naming successors. We'll have to wait and see.

    Sincerely,

    Jerome
     
  14. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    There are a number of good reasons why I would discuss some things with my friend, Rocky Paswik in private e-mails or phone calls. Obviously I would not
    make that suggestion simply for the sake of making it. As far my e-mail address, that one is well known and it is my for the public contact point. My phone number on the other hand is not public, I don't even put it on my business cards. Since I worked in a public, tax payer supported facility prior to my retirement
    I am used to have some information about where and how to locate me being public information. If I were uncomfortable with my email address being known, I would not have posted it.

    As for learning, at least in terms of this discussion, the information that Rocky and I have already posted should serve as a great starting point for those interested in Balintawak and the various "schools" or "styles" to get started on their own research. As I said in an earlier post on this thread, there are a number of my associates who are attracted to different "styles" such as GM Atillo, Sam Buot, Ted Buot, Master Jayme and GM Taboada. As a group, we feel very fortunate to have access to these "styles" through both seminars and videos/DVDs. Adding to that is the fact that we, as individuals, could have contact via e-mail with some people who were teaching/training in the particular "style" that was interesting to us. There is already more than enough information available within this thread to keep people going.

    Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
     
  15. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman Senior Master

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    Well Rocky pretty much covered everything. That being said there are two things you wrote that I would like to address.
    Jerome you wrote:
    I guess we look at things a little differently. If you choose to count from the time you&#8217;ve read a book or watched a video, etc., I guess people could add as many years to their &#8220;research&#8221; as they want. That being said, counting time your way, my exposure to Balintawak started in the mid 80&#8217;s when Rocky would come to Buffalo and teach seminars here. Then I trained with Manong Bobby in North Carolina in the early 90&#8217;s and of course there was Remy&#8217;s old school Tapi-Tapi (modified Balintawak Seguidas). Personally I choose to count from the time I got serious with my training. In 2000, I started training with Manong Ted, until his stroke in late 2005. For those who don&#8217;t know about training with Manong Ted, this is how it works. You start with a weekend training course to get the fundamentals. This is a 6 &#8211; 8 hour course. After completing the course, you schedule individual lessons. The most important factor is that ALL of the lessons are private at Manong Ted&#8217;s home. I would drive to Detroit monthly for lessons and would log 4 hours per visit with him. Eventually, I went down to 2 hour visits. The training was the best I&#8217;ve ever received. I had one on one training with the GM and received history lessons as well. Quite different from a couple of seminars and watching a DVD.

    Well, here is another statement that is a little off. I&#8217;ve been touring with Manong Bobby recently and this topic came up. According to Bobby, he only came to Buffalo 3-4 times for you. I know that you&#8217;ve hosted a fair amount of events at the college, so you may be confused as to how many times you hosted Bobby. Unfortunately, your events were always scheduled during Remy&#8217;s Michigan summer camps. I remember that you and I had a meeting and we specifically discussed this schedule conflict. You informed me that the only dates available were the same weekend of Remy&#8217;s camp, year after year. As an event host myself, I realize that when I schedule events during other people events, I might not get support.

    Well, I have to start getting ready for my seminar in Dallas this weekend.
     
  16. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Hello Tim,
    My records differ with your reported numbers, but that is not the issue of this thread. Let’s get this thread back on track. You wrote the following:
    >I have two questions or issues with this post.
    > 1. According to GM Atillo’s website, he was born in1938. That means he was 4 years old when the >Japanese invaded thePhilippines. I don’t know >how much training he could have done with the >Saavedra’sat that age. And I doubt that GM Atillo ever trained with the Saavedras sincethey both >died during WWII.
    > 2. Saavedra Eskrima is not Balintawak, its SaavedraEskrima. Anciong Bacon modified what he was >taught and it evolved into wasis now known as >Balintawak. Calling it Saavedra’s Balintawak is saying >Yip Man’sJeet Kune Do.
    I answered both of your questions and cited published datato give everyone an opportunity to check the validity of my citations. Then I asked one very specific question ofyou:
    >So my question to you is what other source, system orstyle did GM Bacon have as the basis for his >'new' Balintawak system if itwas not what he >had been taught by the Saavdras'? You also might want tokeep in mind that Venancio Bacon was a nephew of Lorenzo Saavedra and cousin of>Teodoro Saavedra. (page 13).
    You have not answered that question. The burden is still on you to provide ananswer to my question. Perhaps when youget back from Dallas, you’ll have time to answer my very specific question.
    I also want to remind you that you posted the year 2000 asyour start date with Balintawak, now you are going back to 1984? And you are citing Rocky as your source? OK, I can accept that date – 1984 – but I dobelieve that at that time you were still a non-black belt student under GuroJohn Bryant, training at the Filipino Karate Academy in Amherst. Iattended the same seminar and was a brown belt student under Sifu DonZanghi. The seminar was held at the FKAsite. And before you jump forward intime to better validate your Balintawak credential, I’ll stipulate that youhosted Rocky several times prior to 1994 at your school sites. I know that because my students and I attendedall of those seminars when Rocky came to Buffalo.
    My point about the Jayme VHS tape and 1989 was to say thatPaul, Richard, Tom and I were a bit more serious than you about researching theBalintawak connection to Modern Arnis. You were more focused on professor and Modern Arnis than I was and itshows in the fact that you were given a 6[SUP]th[/SUP] degree black belt byProfessor. My highest was a 3[SUP]rd[/SUP]degree. You continued to train with Professoruntil 2000, I split off and founded my own organization in 1994.
    So now it is back to my question. If there are significant differences betweenGM Atillo’s approach to Balintawak from that of GM Venancio Bacon, what arethose differences since both men are using Saavedra Eskrima as thecore element in their respective approaches? Again I would like for you to be specific and detailed based on yourexperience with Balintawak dating back to 1984, not merely 2000.
    Respectfully,
    Jerome
     
  17. Carol

    Carol Crazy like a...

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    Forgive the side question -- does anyone how does the Atillo family and the Saavedra family pronounce their names? If I didn't know otherwise I would pronounce them like Ah-tee-yo and Saah-bay-drah but I do not know if that is correct.

    Just curious :asian:
     
  18. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Master of Arts

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    WOW! A Hartman-Barber-Parsons food fight! I haven't seen one of these on Martial Talk since it went PG rating. Good fun.

    Rocco - as usual your shy self and unwillingness to say what you mean comes to the fore. You really must learn how to express yourself. Lol. Keep 'em coming, gents! This is far more entertaining than the usual fare on here these days.

    Yours in complete solemnity,
    Dan Anderson
     
  19. Rocky

    Rocky Yellow Belt

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    Body Mechanics for one Atillos are not even close to Teds, there are no Whitiks or Abinicos in Teds teaching, and by most accounts Ted is about as close to Anciong as you can get this is why Anciong had Ted teach at the club from 1960 to 1974. I will say this for Gm Atillo he does look a lot more like us then most of the other Grouped or Modified methods. My personal problem is someone is trying to take away from Anciong, and Ted.


    Rocky
     
  20. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Hello Rocky,

    I'm going to work backwards in my reply because I think your last points are the most important. I can only speak for myself on this matter.
    I see no reason to try to take anything fro either GM Bacon or Manong Ted. History is history and the factual data supports the contributions of both men to the Balinatwak Eskrima system. The title of Original Balintawak Club is accurate, but that club was formed some time after 1952, when GM Bacon and some 24 other people separated from the Doce Pares Club to form their own group, which took it's name fro the street where they met.

    Included in that group of people who formed the Balinatawak Self Defense Club were Delfin Lopez, Timeteo Marranga, Vincente Atillo and Venancio Bacon. Manong Ted did not join the Balintawak group until 1959, by his own statements published in the Filipino Matrial Arts Digest. It was a special edition and if you need the precise citation I'll get it for you.

    If anyone is being slighted it is GM Crispulo Atillo because a good number of people do not want to see him as a Balintawak player. They seem to be taking the position that if they accept GM Atillo as a Balintawak player, they then have to see GM Bacon as a lesser figure in the art. That is total ******** and weak-minded thinking. GM Bacon is an important figure in his own right, he was the lead instructor of the BSDC and later he did found the OBC. Those are the real facts and that can't be taken from him by anyone who is objective and interested in the truth. Manong Ted was teaching the OBC style until his stroke and there is nothing that anyone can say to dispute that fact IF they are interested in the truth. GM Atillo says that Manong Ted taught at the club in Cebu City. He knew Manong Ted very well.

    You wrote: "I will say this for Gm Atillo he does look a lot more like us then most of the other Grouped or Modified methods."

    That is and has been my point all along in this thread and in past communications that I have had with numerous people who are in the different variations of the Balintawak style of Eskrima. That brings me back to my question for Hartman. I have asked him to explain in detail the significant differences between the Atillo approach to Balintawak and that of GM Venancio Bacon. Hartman opened that door by trying to deny that the Atillo-Saavedra approach is the same as Bacon's approach. By allowing for individual and personal differences or preferences, no two people are going to show us EXACTLY the same behaviors or movements in a martial art.

    You wrote "Body Mechanics for one Atillos are not even close to Teds, there are no Whitiks or Abinicos in Teds teaching..."

    That is my mind is not a significant structural difference in someone's approach to Balintawak. I don't like whitiks and I seldom use them, however I do teach them and allow my students to decide if they want them as a major part of their stick work. On the other hand I do use abanicos and saltiks because of my height, reach and footwork techniques.

    Thanks for your post and comments, now I just have to wait for Hartman to answer my question about the significant differences between Atillo-Saavedra Balintawak Eskrima and the Bacon-Saavedra Balintawak Eskrima. The two approaches are not identical, but I believe that Hartman and/or anyone else is going to have an extremely difficult time showing that the Atillo approach is not Balintawak. BTW Crispulo Atillo joined the BSDC in 1952 at the age of 14 and trained primarily under father while in the club. As a charter (not founding) member of the BSD he has every right to call his art "Balintawak", along with acknowledging his father's roots in Saavedra Eskrima.

    I think that the larger, unspoken issue for some people on this forum is that GM Atillo publicly announced his Disciple-Successors and three Modern Arnis people were listed, GM Tom Bolden, Master Douglas Pierre and Master Peter Vargas. For some folks that designation alters the dynamics of lineage in Modern Arnis to some degree because the Atillos taught Arnulfo Mongcol the Balintawak style. Mongcol was the first Balintawak teacher of Remy Presas, with Timeteo Marranga and Venancio Bacon being the others in that order. Bolden, Pierre and Vargas are successors to one leg of the three legged stool that forms the basis of the Modern Arnis system and a few people are upset by that reality. Those upset folks need to just step back, take a deep breath and relax. The announcement has been made, it is reality and there is nothing that anyone aside from GM Atillo can do to change it.

    Again, I want to thank you for your post and comments.

    Sincerely,


    Jerome
     

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