Atillo

[ortega1]

First of all I would like to say that I respect all martial arts. I have trained with Atillo for many years. In addition to GM Atillo I have been a student under Mark Mikita and Guro Dan Inosanto. As for GM Atillo's website it does not do him justice. For those who know GM Atillo he wouldn't know how to turn on a computer, I am sure that site was created by one of his students.

What I do know for sure is that GM Atillo does know stick, and I could care less if its called Balintawak. The name matters not.

Guro Inosanto is a student of GM Atillo's, I invite you to contact him and question GM Atillos credentials. Guro Dan has had Atillo teach at the Academy many times, I have been there personally. Simply go to inosanto.com and find the number.

Insulting Atillo in this fourm is like insulting Inosanto himself.

visit fightology.com

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It appears that some Balintawak practitioner's have issues with GM Atillo. That being said people are interested in what GM Atillo does and we are interested in seeing how his system of Balintawak practices. Thanks for posting.

 

[ortega1]

It seems that most people are more interested in the name rather than the art itself. Those who have a problem with GM Atillo should touch hands with him first before their critical. Besides who is really true Balintawak here, everything evolves. I have seen thosands of JKD instructors and none of them are like Sigung Bruce, they incorporate their past styles and influences to JKD.

I am not here to say Atillo is this or that, I know him personally and know his shortcomings. What I am saying is that training under him I know his approach is effective and I am not alone when I say that. Like I said, ask Guro Dan Inosanto himself. I think Dan will know true master when he sees one.

 

[arnisador]

If his approach is effective, that's all that matters when the sticks cross!

 

[Rich Parsons]

It seems that most people are more interested in the name rather than the art itself. Those who have a problem with GM Atillo should touch hands with him first before their critical. Besides who is really true Balintawak here, everything evolves. I have seen thosands of JKD instructors and none of them are like Sigung Bruce, they incorporate their past styles and influences to JKD.

I am not here to say Atillo is this or that, I know him personally and know his shortcomings. What I am saying is that training under him I know his approach is effective and I am not alone when I say that. Like I said, ask Guro Dan Inosanto himself. I think Dan will know true master when he sees one.

Ortega1,

I understand those who do not understand computers.

I understand that many people try to make what they study the best why else would one want to study it.

So, as a student of Atillo, why not talk to him about his website. Talk to him about what is being presented and how negative publicity is not doing him nor the art well.

As to Balintawak, I have no real issues with him using the work to describe his system. Like I said I have never questioned his skills. I have questioned what is be passed off as truth and history.

A couple of years ago his "Nephews" had some arguements with some online about this type of issue. The Nephews stated it was absolute truth as that is what GM Atillo told them in person. So, based upon the past, I cannot total excuse GM Atillo. He has allowed and by some told what is not true. Some say it is what old Manongs do with their family. Some say it is jsut stories so what is the harm. In a very oral tradition, that is now being documented in writing, it does matter.

I agree go train with him. I have even told some to go and see him. Others have askedme what I thought. I told them my opinion based from not meeting him. That I would be careful, as what surrounds him is not always the truth. But that he should have some good stick based upon where and when he came from.

I do have a question for you though sir. I thought GM Atillo was no longer teaching at the Inosanto Academy. (* At least that is what I heard from some other Inosanto practitioners. *) I do not deny he did teach there. Just curious if he still is?

Thanks

 

[Robert Klampfer]

For those who know GM Atillo he wouldn't know how to turn on a computer, I am sure that site was created by one of his students.

I'm sure you're correct but, I would find it implausible that he doesn't know what's there. If he does know it's there and doesn't do anything about it, he's giving it his tacit approval. Besides, I have it on good authority from a very trusted source that he's publicly said many of those things himself.

It appears that some Balintawak practitioner's have issues with GM Atillo.

Correct. Family matter that's getting public airtime because it was taken public some time ago via the WWW.

What I do know for sure is that GM Atillo does know stick, and I could care less if its called Balintawak. The name matters not.

If his approach is effective, that's all that matters when the sticks cross!

People keep saying things like that and I must disagree. The name does matter because he's using the name and reputation while attempting to belittle people who really propagated and promoted the art. I don't think anyone would have an issue with using the name if there were no fabrications and there was at least an attempt at showing some loyalty. What's in a name? Apparently a lot, because he insists on using it.

Insulting Atillo in this fourm is like insulting Inosanto himself.

I definitely don't think that's the case in anything I've read, whether taken in or out of context.

...people are interested in what GM Atillo does and we are interested in seeing how his system of Balintawak practices.

Fair enough. Just don't drink the Kool-Aid...

The issue that most people I know seem to take is over credibility, not capability. And there appear to be some serious credibility issues brought forward. The stories get larger with every telling, with constant revision of history and outrageous claims that just keep growing. The story of the alleged fight with Ted Buot seemed to come out of nowhere (after Mr. Buot suffered a stroke, I believe. Rich may be able to comment...?). And the story that began as an alleged friendly match with Anciong Bacon has now become a "death match". Anciong Bacon died of natural causes and Atillo is still alive so, what story is coming next? Maybe a conspiracy theory that Atillo actually killed Bacon and Bacon's students conspired to somehow have a body double stand in for Anciong for many years in order to be able to claim that Atillo didn't beat him? Or maybe Atillo took Bacon's place and put the body double in place for himself, then switched it out later... Yes, that's much better. If we're going to be creative, let's get really creative!

Robert

 

[Rich Parsons]

. . .

The issue that most people I know seem to take is over credibility, not capability. And there appear to be some serious credibility issues brought forward. The stories get larger with every telling, with constant revision of history and outrageous claims that just keep growing. The story of the alleged fight with Ted Buot seemed to come out of nowhere (after Mr. Buot suffered a stroke, I believe. Rich may be able to comment...?). And the story that began as an alleged friendly match with Anciong Bacon has now become a "death match". Anciong Bacon died of natural causes and Atillo is still alive so, what story is coming next? Maybe a conspiracy theory that Atillo actually killed Bacon and Bacon's students conspired to somehow have a body double stand in for Anciong for many years in order to be able to claim that Atillo didn't beat him? Or maybe Atillo took Bacon's place and put the body double in place for himself, then switched it out later... Yes, that's much better. If we're going to be creative, let's get really creative!

Robert

The supposed fight between GM Atillo and GM Buot did not happen, from my sources. The actual time of it being made public I cannot speak too. I have never seen Manong Ted so angry as he was about GM Atillo. He was not about his supposed fight with him. It was about his fight with Manong Anciong, that was supposed to be more in the order of, "OK kid show me what you have?" (* As Manong Anciong feeds a punyo as in Abecedario. *) GM Atillo States he was able to get inside Bacon's defense. Manong Ted was more upset about this misrepresentation of his instructor than he was over himself. He had hoped at one time that the two of them could have met to discuss the differences.

As to Death Matches, I understand that anytime two people who are serious and or mad and swing sticks at each death is a possibility. This is an area of taking something serious and trying to make it seem even more serious.

 

[arnisador]

People keep saying things like that and I must disagree. The name does matter because he's using the name and reputation

OK, I understand this point.

 

[Robert Klampfer]

The supposed fight between GM Atillo and GM Buot did not happen, from my sources. The actual time of it being made public I cannot speak too. I have never seen Manong Ted so angry as he was about GM Atillo. He was not about his supposed fight with him. It was about his fight with Manong Anciong, that was supposed to be more in the order of, "OK kid show me what you have?" (* As Manong Anciong feeds a punyo as in Abecedario. *) GM Atillo States he was able to get inside Bacon's defense. Manong Ted was more upset about this misrepresentation of his instructor than he was over himself. He had hoped at one time that the two of them could have met to discuss the differences.

Thanks Rich. I figured you'd have some insight.

As to Death Matches, I understand that anytime two people who are serious and or mad and swing sticks at each death is a possibility. This is an area of taking something serious and trying to make it seem even more serious.

That's basically my understanding, too. I was just being facetious in illustrating how the story may grow yet again.

Robert

 

[soncen]

First of all I would like to say that I respect all martial arts. I have trained with Atillo for many years. In addition to GM Atillo I have been a student under Mark Mikita and Guro Dan Inosanto. As for GM Atillo's website it does not do him justice. For those who know GM Atillo he wouldn't know how to turn on a computer, I am sure that site was created by one of his students.

What I do know for sure is that GM Atillo does know stick, and I could care less if its called Balintawak. The name matters not.

Guro Inosanto is a student of GM Atillo's, I invite you to contact him and question GM Atillos credentials. Guro Dan has had Atillo teach at the Academy many times, I have been there personally. Simply go to inosanto.com and find the number.

Insulting Atillo in this fourm is like insulting Inosanto himself.

visit fightology.com

Hello Mr. Ortega1,

I think you also mean to say that you respect all martial artists especially the dead people who cannot speak for himself in defense. But there are some students, grand students and even great grand students of Anciong who cannot afford to just stay in the corner and remain silent despite of the misinformation that was circulating in the entire world. I have to tell the world that Atillo’s style is really not a Balintawak, because the name was already attributed to Anciong Bacon and his style is different from Anciong’s and you cannot say it is evolution of the Balintawak because his style according to him was coming from Doring Saavedra the teacher of his father Vicente and not from Anciong Bacon the inventor of the Balintawak style.

I know that for some people the name do not matters as what they see the man does know stick and they believed is very effective and works for them. I have no comment on that, we are only telling the exact story so the people around the world may know that the real Balintawak style was the one that was invented by Anciong Bacon and not the style that was acquired by Ising Atillo from his father Vicente who learns from Doring Saavedra. I think that contacting people in the U.S. to inquire Atillo’s credentials is not the best thing to do because the only credible and I think the most believable people to inquire about is the people from Cebu where he was born and grow up and who knows well of him in person since childhood.

We are only reacting in good faith and responding to correct some misinformation not insulting people. Because there are possibilities that those people who are working for his website are not properly informed and I hope they will learn in this thread. This forum was intended for Balintawak discussion and I feel the urging to be involved to share part of my knowledge in the history of our Martial art style and the people who played the big role in the promotion and propagation of our art to our entire brother Balintawak in the entire universe. Hope I may not be misunderstood, I admire you being very respectful to all martial arts and I think as well as the martial artists themselves which you also mean to say. God bless!!!

Respectfully yours,

Wilson R. Ceniza

 

[Guro Harold]

Hello Mr. Ortega1,

I think you also mean to say that you respect all martial artists especially the dead people who cannot speak for himself in defense. But there are some students, grand students and even great grand students of Anciong who cannot afford to just stay in the corner and remain silent despite of the misinformation that was circulating in the entire world. I have to tell the world that Atillo’s style is really not a Balintawak, because the name was already attributed to Anciong Bacon and his style is different from Anciong’s and you cannot say it is evolution of the Balintawak because his style according to him was coming from Doring Saavedra the teacher of his father Vicente and not from Anciong Bacon the inventor of the Balintawak style.

I know that for some people the name do not matters as what they see the man does know stick and they believed is very effective and works for them. I have no comment on that, we are only telling the exact story so the people around the world may know that the real Balintawak style was the one that was invented by Anciong Bacon and not the style that was acquired by Ising Atillo from his father Vicente who learns from Doring Saavedra. I think that contacting people in the U.S. to inquire Atillo’s credentials is not the best thing to do because the only credible and I think the most believable people to inquire about is the people from Cebu where he was born and grow up and who knows well of him in person since childhood.

We are only reacting in good faith and responding to correct some misinformation not insulting people. Because there are possibilities that those people who are working for his website are not properly informed and I hope they will learn in this thread. This forum was intended for Balintawak discussion and I feel the urging to be involved to share part of my knowledge in the history of our Martial art style and the people who played the big role in the promotion and propagation of our art to our entire brother Balintawak in the entire universe. Hope I may not be misunderstood, I admire you being very respectful to all martial arts and I think as well as the martial artists themselves which you also mean to say. God bless!!!

Respectfully yours,

Wilson R. Ceniza

Well said!

 

[soncen]

It seems that most people are more interested in the name rather than the art itself. Those who have a problem with GM Atillo should touch hands with him first before their critical. Besides who is really true Balintawak here, everything evolves. I have seen thosands of JKD instructors and none of them are like Sigung Bruce, they incorporate their past styles and influences to JKD.

I am not here to say Atillo is this or that, I know him personally and know his shortcomings. What I am saying is that training under him I know his approach is effective and I am not alone when I say that. Like I said, ask Guro Dan Inosanto himself. I think Dan will know true master when he sees one.

Hello Mr. Ortega1,

Some people say the name matters not for them because what they are after is only the effectiveness of the style.

But for the members of the real Balintawak it has to do something big, you can just imagine a person posing to be a fighter for the Balintawak and in the name of the Balintawak challenging anybody for a fight and lose in the fight because he lacks the ability and skills of the real Balintawak style that was invented by Anciong Bacon to counter from the clutches of the opponent.

The entire Balintawak community would suffer the agony of degradation, derision and dishonor and that is because of the work of one person which I think had purposely done to discredit the name. Anciong Bacon did not teach his style and after learning would seek trouble with the other martial artist only to brag about the effectiveness of his skill.

Anciong respected all martial artist and his followers do the same thing he did. God bless!!!

Respectfully,

Wilson R. Ceniza

 

[ortega1]

He never was an instructor at the academy. Guro trained with him privatley for years. Then on occasion when Atillo was in town at the academy Guro Dan would let him take over the FMA class. But make no mistake he announce him to the class as his Balintawak instructor.

Respectfully,

Anthony

Ortega1,

I understand those who do not understand computers.

I understand that many people try to make what they study the best why else would one want to study it.

So, as a student of Atillo, why not talk to him about his website. Talk to him about what is being presented and how negative publicity is not doing him nor the art well.

As to Balintawak, I have no real issues with him using the work to describe his system. Like I said I have never questioned his skills. I have questioned what is be passed off as truth and history.

A couple of years ago his "Nephews" had some arguements with some online about this type of issue. The Nephews stated it was absolute truth as that is what GM Atillo told them in person. So, based upon the past, I cannot total excuse GM Atillo. He has allowed and by some told what is not true. Some say it is what old Manongs do with their family. Some say it is jsut stories so what is the harm. In a very oral tradition, that is now being documented in writing, it does matter.

I agree go train with him. I have even told some to go and see him. Others have askedme what I thought. I told them my opinion based from not meeting him. That I would be careful, as what surrounds him is not always the truth. But that he should have some good stick based upon where and when he came from.

I do have a question for you though sir. I thought GM Atillo was no longer teaching at the Inosanto Academy. (* At least that is what I heard from some other Inosanto practitioners. *) I do not deny he did teach there. Just curious if he still is?

Thanks

 

[ortega1]

I know that Atillo is a man stuck in the past and is very stubborn, like most older GrandMasters, claiming that their art is the very best. I have seen hundreds of them. I cannot control what anyone says about their art. I have touched hands with many masters in my time including Beouts student David Hatch, loved my time with him. He is a full student of Dans and Beout.

Atillos father was a member of Balintawak correct? He was in the class photo. If his father taught him, and I know he did for most of his life wouldn't you consider Atillos father to be Balintawak? I have learned JKD from Dan Inosanto not from Bruce Lee but consider myself a JKD/FMA practioner.

And to respond to a member speaking about Atillos classes. I will be the first to admit he is not the best at class teaching, standing around is common. But if you do a private, you will see the magic. This topic about Atillo and Balintawak will probably last beyond our years, and I know all of you are preserving your history. GM A.B was a great man and GM I am sure, and has a strong student following but to say that Atillo's father basically didn't exist and that Atillo's father wasn't Balintawak I just cant agree. And Atillos father was Balintawak he has a right to teach his son which would make Atillo apart of the Balintawak history to a certain degree. Atillo never claimed at least to me that he created Balintawak or that he was a member of the club, after all he was just a kid in the 50's. But his father did teach him.

 

[Carol]

And Atillos father was Balintawak he has a right to teach his son which would make Atillo apart of the Balintawak history to a certain degree.

From the way that it is being described, I would say that Balintawak is part of GM Atillo's history. But I can't see that GM Atillo is part of Balintawak history from what I'm reading sir.

From what I know of Balintawak - I am not a Balintawak stylist so please forgive any mistakes - the art has gained a strong reputation due to its martial rigor and consistency. This reputation has continued after the death of GM Bacon because of the students that have maintained the same rigor and consistency of training. Rigor breeds discipline, consistency breeds credibility. Personally I can understand the concern of Balintawak stylists that see a martial artist that did not undergo the same rigor and consistency their teachers underwent...yet the person is still using the Balintawak name implying they did so.

GM Atillo may be a fine martial artist and a fine grandmaster in his own right...it follows that there would be less confusion and perhaps less strife if he used a stylistic name that was indicative of his own accomplishments instead of soemone else's.

That is just my opinion though. :asian:

 

[Robert Klampfer]

I know that Atillo is a man stuck in the past and is very stubborn, like most older GrandMasters, claiming that their art is the very best.

Maybe in other arts you've been around, but no Balintawak masters I'm aware of do this. They are humble, low profile, and always willing to compliment a good practitioner of any style or system. If they were hell-raisers in their youth, they matured out of it.

Atillos father was a member of Balintawak correct? He was in the class photo. If his father taught him, and I know he did for most of his life wouldn't you consider Atillos father to be Balintawak?

...but to say that Atillo's father basically didn't exist and that Atillo's father wasn't Balintawak I just cant agree. And Atillos father was Balintawak he has a right to teach his son which would make Atillo apart of the Balintawak history to a certain degree.

As I understand it, Inting Atillo (the father) was a well-respected escrimador and certainly was around during the time that Balintawak was founded. However, I seem to recall being told that Inting didn't embrace Balintawak and maintained Saavedra's style. Nobody is claiming that he didn't exist or that he wasn't present at any time. I just don't get the impression that his participation in the development of Balintawak was as profound as it's being made out to be.

Besides, Atillo himself says on his website: "Atillo Balintawak is a powerful Filipino martial art developed by Grandmaster Crispulo "Ising" Atillo based on the style of the legendary Grandmaster Doring Saavedra."

Atillo never claimed at least to me that he created Balintawak or that he was a member of the club, after all he was just a kid in the 50's.

Maybe he never told you that but, he's telling the rest of the world that he was. Again, from his own website: "Ising Atillo was an original member of that organization as well; he was the youngest member at the age of 14" and "Ising Atillo claims to be original Balintawak, because he was an original member when it was first established." There's a big difference between being around and being involved. I find it hard to believe that a 14 year-old boy would have had much influence or have been considered a founding member.

Again, it comes back to credibility. Specifically, a demonstrated lack thereof.

This topic about Atillo and Balintawak will probably last beyond our years...

From the way that it is being described, I would say that Balintawak is part of GM Atillo's history. But I can't see that GM Atillo is part of Balintawak history from what I'm reading sir.

I tend to think the controversy will likely die with him and he won't receive any measure of fame. (At least not in the Balintawak community) If he persists at all, it's likely to be only as a footnote somewhere.

Well said, Carol.

...it follows that there would be less confusion and perhaps less strife if he used a stylistic name that was indicative of his own accomplishments instead of someone else's.

Bingo! Several well-known people with roots in / ties to Balintawak have done exactly that: Remy Presas, Ondo Carburnay, Timor Maranga, etc. All of them are embraced as friends, cousins. People are happy for them and their accomplishments.

To quote John of Salisbury: "We are like dwarfs sitting on the shoulders of giants. We see more, and things that are more distant, than they did, not because our sight is superior or because we are taller than they, but because they raise us up, and by their great stature add to ours."

Robert

 

[Teovel_Balintawak]

I have learned JKD from Dan Inosanto not from Bruce Lee but consider myself a JKD/FMA practioner.

Guru Dan Inosanto teaches JKD. JKD is attributed to Sifu Bruce Lee. Both men have sparred. Can you imagine if one afternoon Guru Dan is having a good day and manages to disarm Sifu Bruce a couple of times, then gets on the internet and proclaims himself the champion of a death match saying his JKD is better than Bruce's AND then says is father in Stockton, CA was actually the one that created JKD. There of course will be an uproar, if you can understand that analogy then you will understand why many people are very passionate about this particular revision of history.

In the end, this whole affair is a tempest in a teacup, there's more important things in life (like world hunger, peace in the Middle East, journalists dying in the Philippines and the gentrification by Tagalog/Manila yuppies of Cebu City):drinkbeer

 

[Rich Parsons]

He never was an instructor at the academy. Guro trained with him privatley for years. Then on occasion when Atillo was in town at the academy Guro Dan would let him take over the FMA class. But make no mistake he announce him to the class as his Balintawak instructor.

Respectfully,

Anthony

Anthony,

Does Guro Dan I, still admit that he is learning Balintawak from GM Atillo?

Does he still associate with GM Atillo?

 

[Rich Parsons]

I know that Atillo is a man stuck in the past and is very stubborn, like most older GrandMasters, claiming that their art is the very best. I have seen hundreds of them. I cannot control what anyone says about their art. I have touched hands with many masters in my time including Beouts student David Hatch, loved my time with him. He is a full student of Dans and Beout.

I Know Dave Hatch. He is a good Guy. On a side note, the name of Dave's and mine instructor is Buot.

As to being stuck in the past. That is ok. Then expect to catch flak. If you understand that he is stuck in the past then why do you not understand other peoples issues with his comments. (* Note, you have representatives of many different Families of Balintawak here who all trace back to Manong Anciong. We have our differences, but we all agree on a few things. One of them is that GM Anciong Bacon was the founder. He was the teacher at the school on Balintawak Street. Manong Ted Buot was the other who would teach. Of course there were others who had their own schools such as GM Villisin/Velez and others. *) So while it seems that the grouped, "orginal" or random, ..., parts of the family can all agree on these points, while Along come GM Atillo acting like there are none alive who can correct his statements, he gets to re-write history. *) So, if I created a story or two about "meeting" with some people and then others called me on it. I should be surprised by the others calling me on my actions? I think not.

Atillos father was a member of Balintawak correct? He was in the class photo. If his father taught him, and I know he did for most of his life wouldn't you consider Atillos father to be Balintawak? I have learned JKD from Dan Inosanto not from Bruce Lee but consider myself a JKD/FMA practioner.

The story I have from Manong Ted is that Ising would stop by but he would not train.

i.e. I stop by the IMAF summer camp in Michigan, almost each year. I also train in Modern Arnis through a different independant group. Yet as I stop, I pay my respect in person and I talk to friends. This does not mean I am a member or an active member in their organization. It would not be good of me to claim such.

So, if it is not good for me to do such a thing then why is it good for others to do it?

And to respond to a member speaking about Atillos classes. I will be the first to admit he is not the best at class teaching, standing around is common. But if you do a private, you will see the magic. This topic about Atillo and Balintawak will probably last beyond our years, and I know all of you are preserving your history. GM A.B was a great man and GM I am sure, and has a strong student following but to say that Atillo's father basically didn't exist and that Atillo's father wasn't Balintawak I just cant agree. And Atillos father was Balintawak he has a right to teach his son which would make Atillo apart of the Balintawak history to a certain degree. Atillo never claimed at least to me that he created Balintawak or that he was a member of the club, after all he was just a kid in the 50's. But his father did teach him.

I agree that Privates are the best way to learn.

I never said the Ising or Inting Atillo did not exist. Please show me where I even implied such a statement please. I am always looking to increase my written communication skills, so this would be good for me to learn from.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Guru Dan Inosanto teaches JKD. JKD is attributed to Sifu Bruce Lee. Both men have sparred. Can you imagine if one afternoon Guru Dan is having a good day and manages to disarm Sifu Bruce a couple of times, then gets on the internet and proclaims himself the champion of a death match saying his JKD is better than Bruce's AND then says is father in Stockton, CA was actually the one that created JKD. There of course will be an uproar, if you can understand that analogy then you will understand why many people are very passionate about this particular revision of history.

In the end, this whole affair is a tempest in a teacup, there's more important things in life (like world hunger, peace in the Middle East, journalists dying in the Philippines and the gentrification by Tagalog/Manila yuppies of Cebu City):drinkbeer

GEE?!?!

You mean those times I trained with Manong (GM) Ted Buot and I was able to surprise or catch him off guard, I should have told everyone and written about it and made everyone think I was the best now? WOW I did not know that was how it worked.

Here is how it worked for me. The old man (* Said with the utmost respect *) would smile and then take it to the next level. Where by I was back on 100% defense. I would be smiling the whole time with him. It was great for me to be shown and to be able to work this. I was honored he actually took the time to take it to the next level not to just show me that I was not the best but that he was willing to teach me how to even get better.

I guess I have been doing it all wrong with respect and honor, and the idea of trying to learn, with the understanding that the an instructor is sometimes just there working with you so you can move. Not shutting you down so you cannot learn at all.