Historical question and/or Statement

Discussion in 'Balintawak' started by Datu Tim Hartman, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    Dan,

    You point of using a single source as your only reference when that source gets its information from the same person who is making the claim, being a difficult sell , will fall on deaf ears. It will be ignored or you will be called biased as has been done in the past when I tried to point out the same logical errors. :(

    Good Luck.
     
  2. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    Dan,

    In the past Jerome goes quiet publicly at times like this, and sends out IM's, Private Messages, and/or E-mails.
    He makes his arguments in private trying to be friends and still get you to think his way. If you are not with him
    he usually gets frustrated and tells you he is dine or finished with this subject. It is his way to try and keep it quiet
    so if you bring it publicly again, then he can accuse you of breaking some expected level of privacy.

    I wish you good luck in this conversation.


    Thanks
     
  3. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    I'm sort of sitting back and learning in regards to this whole thing Dan. I'm getting the feeling that "our" (American FMA) politics are very different from the "Politics" going on between these Filipinos.

    I'm betting that whats going on between you guys is over vastly different reasons than what went on between Atillo and Bacon.

    In regards to the silence..there is this comment on Jeromes Blog.

    http://seasian-martialarts.blogspot...howComment=1375676348489#c2698488478243424444

    It touches on cultural differences. Which is something I have been wondering about as I lurk here. I wonder how accurate any of our theories on this really are as we pigeonhole events through our cultural lenses.

    I wonder if there are any Filipinos who could support/refute some of the points that most of you Non-Filipinos have been making here. And on Pauls comment on the OP as well...while Im his friend I don't know or stand by the accuracy of HIS sources either.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2013
  4. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    Tom,

    It is not the same. The old Filipino's would go hit each other.


    As to that other site, why go somewhere, and allow others to edit and delete posts. I have been through that before with those that support Atillo.

    As to the only part of the link that I read before I closed it.
    Those who are too afraid to comment there ...

    I prefer not to comment there as stated above, and for the reason that when I drove 4.5 hours to talk in person with Jerome, he would not talk about the subject. He kept changing it.
    He even went so far to attack books that GM Remy Presas had done. After a few times of trying to get the subject back on hand, I just allowed him to talk and rant, and to continue his victim
    mentality.

    As to the supporters there, they have attacked me on multiple sites and accused me of saying and doing things that are not true. They get together and act like a mob and make it two or three
    or even four or more against one. So it looks like there are multiple voices against one lone voice that just seems not to get it.

    So I offer up why do they not post here? Oh sorry, they are no longer allowed here, as they broke the rules, of dual accounts, and playing games, and such. Well their actions speak volumes for
    them as I have not been permanently banned from any forum site.

    Dr Barber, has access to this site. He can respond if he wants too.


    Oh and Tom, just to let you know, some of the issues that got people in trouble was posting other peoples comments up for them from multiple sites. I know you understand this, and if you want
    to continue to be a middle person and post issues or links to sites they control that is ok. Just understand that all of those before seem to end up getting mad and crossing a line.

    So, I ask you kindly, and with respect, to consider your actions and how you support your teacher, and your teacher's teacher. I respect your loyalty. I respect your comments. You were never the one
    to threaten me with your badge it was those that you support and those that are speaking out of turn.

    ****



    Jerome,


    You have access to this site. Do I need to take a page out of your play book. Create a fake account and have the account challenge to show up? Do I need to make claims that you are afraid of
    responding as you know your are wrong , and refuse to admit it?

    No, As we have disagreed in the past, and while I have asked you and challenged your response you stated through others you were not afraid. Just choose not to respond.

    As the great rock "Rush" wrote: "If you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." I respect your right and decision not to reply. You lack of reply in itself speaks volumes for those who
    will read this in the future.


    BTW: I do not believe we have had any verbal or written conversation since your title of GM. Congratulations. I wish you the best in your training.
     
  5. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    HI Rich,

    Yeah..Im sort of in an odd position here, being one of the only people from "the past" still kicking around. To be honest I didn't know that Jerome still had the ability to post here.

    As to the relationship between Paul and I...I suppose you could term it Teacher/Student when it come to FMA, but it's slightly more complicated than that. We have been "teaching" each other stuff one of us knows since we were teens. I learned how to rock climb...I taught him. He learned FMA...he taught me. So my relationship to this stuff is less "tribal" for me as it is something that concerns my friend.

    As to my badge...it would be silly to let something like this degrade into doing something like THAT. I find this stuff "interesting" from a historical/people watching aspect. I don't have any personal investment in topic really.

    Best regards.
     
  6. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    So to continue the conversation and hopefully come to some sort of consensus...was Bacon the FOUNDER of Balintawak? As in...did he create the techniques of the art and are they unique to Balintawak alone? Or was he the head instructor of a "Club" called Balintawak with the possibility that other people could be practicing the same physical techniques/style just not under the same name?

    The former seems to be the point you folks are supporting with the latter appearing to be what the other side is claiming. Is that the crux of this debate?
     
  7. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Master of Arts

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    Hi Tom,

    You raise some good questions here. Better yet, when you do raise them they aren't of the attack nature, etc. I don't mind a good natured discourse. I even have fun with them. It's just too bad that it degenerates into "make myself right by making others wrong." I don't mind the occasional food fight, though.

    Yours,
    DA
     
  8. Datu Tim Hartman

    Datu Tim Hartman Senior Master

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    Anciong is as much the founder of Balintawak , as Remy was the founder of Modern Arnis. Everyone was taught by son one else. Eventually one puts so much variations from what was originally taught it merits a name change. There are plenty of sources Anciong Bacon as the founder of the art. If you google "Who created Balintawak Eskrima" you'll get an overwhelming amount of sites that say BM Bacon. Then there plenty of books that say the same.

    I also want to point out that he wasn't just the "Head" instructor. He was the "ONLY" instructor until he brought up some one (Ted Buot) to a level that he would trust to do the job right. People may have started their own training groups, but they all where students of Anciong.

    That's all for now. Need to get ready for this weekends Balintawak camp.
     
  9. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    Tom,

    That seems to be the point. The issue is that every linage except Atillo says that the Founder was Bacon. Only Atillo has a different story, and his other stories are also subject to such wide variation from the norm they just do not fit in.
    While if you talk or listen too many other lineages you can here the same stories but the perspective is told from their teachers point of view when the witnessed it. This gives some subjective material, yet in all the cases I have discussed
    with people the information provided is not contradictory, and they provide information that tells more of the story.




    A good discussion is good. Questions are good. Claims that can only be validated from the source making the claim are difficult to understand or comprehend.


    So Tom, If I told you I was your Chief of Police. Would you believe me? Would you not point to all of the people who know otherwise? But I claim that I am the real valid chief of police as I was really the one chosen, and it was a political smear campaign that put who you call the chief in place.
    Those of really know like myself, know the truth. So go check out Mymadeupstories.com for verification. Note: I own and put the information up on this site. Also please go check this book. While the author is not me and it is not published by me, I am the one who provided the information for the book "Made up stories".

    So if I said the sky is orange.

    And then I said my proof is that I have an absolute statement in my given.

    The sky is orange.

    So the Sky must be orange. And all others who say different are wrong and just jealous and attacking me because they are afraid of what I have to say.

    Insert a red herring here.

    Or, Do a diversion here as well such as ask people to go to a different web site so the argument are not all in coherent location.













    Those who have a lineage of Balintawak were recognized as school owners or teaching out of their house as their school, with the exception of Atillo. There are no such stories of information except from Atillo himself.
     
  10. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Hi Rich, Hi Dan,

    Just a couple of points for your information. I have not sent out any IMs, private messages and /or emails on this thread.
    There is no need to make any private arguments because all the data is in the public view to be read by all so interested.
    I enjoy a good conversation with different points of view and I don't get frustrated when there is disagreement, only when
    my points are ignored or discounted in the replies because I try to answer the points raised by others and when I can't then
    I have to consider the validity of my points - sometimes I have to change - that happens in good academic discussions
    backed with sound data. You win some, you lose some.

    I'm not "...dine or finished with this subject." ;-) Although, I do know what you intended to write, I couldn't resist it. No one
    is going to breaking any privacy considerations on this on this matter. If I had sent either of you a private e-mail, I would
    expect that any exchange would be kept between the parties involved and it would be so on my part. That after all is the
    purpose of private communications between people... information is kept between the two of them and that usually leads to a
    more open and honest discourse.

    As for using a single source, that works and is perfectly acceptable if that source is valid and well researched. Given that the
    authors of "Cebuano Eskrima" cited some 85 reference sources in the generally accepted academic/literary research protocol
    areas of Thesis and Disseratation, Books, Journals and Magazines, Newspapers and the Internet, they were a good single source.
    I think they went well beyond what Dan offered us within his post. His citations were of a generalized nature and did not cover
    the Balintawak lineage that we were discussing in the thread. There's nothing wrong with his sources, I read them all and owe
    copies of most, but those sources are not appropriate for the topic at hand. I should also point out that I had read about a third
    of the sources that the authors cited in their book before reading the book and I have since gone through and read some the original
    sources cited.

    There really isn't any more to say on the lineage matter as far as I am concerned. It seems to me that both of you have position
    staked out and will hold it regardless of the evidence that might come up. OK, that's your position, why continue to argue? You
    guys know that you are right. I don't have a problem with that. I can accept that you are not going to consider any other option.
    My research and conversations with folks both inside and outside of the Philippines tells me that I have to take a different position
    on the matter and that's just the way it is.

    A number of people have put the whole system vs. school name on an very modern western perspective, I see the BSDC in a larger
    format as a social club with the martial arts component being one aspect of the reason for the club's existence. Someone needs to
    explain why there was a BSDC AND an Original Balintawak Club. The authors of Cebuano Eskrima give us a strong and logical
    argument as to why that happened. Good or bad, the existence of the two clubs with the very same name involved has to be
    explained by you guys, not me. No one is arguing against Venancio Bacon being the lead martial arts instructor of the BSDC. Nor
    is anyone saying that he didn't found the Original Balintawak Club. My point was and remains that Crispulo Atillo was a member of
    the BSDC, trained with the other club members and was recognized by people inside and outside of the clubhouse as a Balintawak man.
    His father taught him Saavedra Eskrima, which is the foundational bedrock of the Balintawak System. He has every right to use the
    word "Balintawak" to describe his system of stick fighting.

    He is paying homage to his father and his father's teachers, Lorenzo and Doring Saavedra as well as acknowledging where the art went
    after 1952. He is part of the ungrouped side of Balintawak.

    So that's it. My position is different from yours and I'm ok with it. You are absolutely correct in your position and we will just have to
    agree to disagree. It's not a problem for me. Life will go on, the sun will continue to rise in the east and set in the west, at least for the foreseeable future and I'll continue to teach my students to appreciate both the grouped and ungrouped sides of Balintawak.

    Respectfully yours in the arts,


    Jerome Barber, Ed. D.,
    Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates
     
  11. Dan Anderson

    Dan Anderson Master of Arts

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    Hi Jerome,

    Now that you are stating opinion as opposed to stating "that the facts of the matter are...", I don't have and never will have any problem with differences of opinion. Opinion and viewpoints are what they are - those and $3.00 will get you a good cup of coffee. I am including my own opinions in that statement as well. The works I have cited were from people who are not only legitimate FMA practitioners, but those who have been to and trained in the PI numerous times. Mark V. Wiley has been to the PI a dozen times training with many masters. Krishna and Jose have been there numerous times as well. I take in all the works and make my own decision.

    On a totally different topic, I tried to post on your site congratulating Tom Bolden, Doug Pierre and Pete Vargas on their acknowledgement by GM Atillo. It didn't go through, probably because I'm not registered there. Is that the case because if it is, I'll register and repost.

    Yours,
    Dan
     
  12. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    Hi Jerome

    hmmm? Ok. Yet in the past that is what you have done, and that is what I wrote.


    Yes and no. As there are different opinions, and it seems it is your idea to make your opinion fact. And this is not the first time. Nor was there only one time.


    You state you enjoy a good conversation, yet I have never seen you change your point. You expect others to change their perspective and see your point of view.

    You have also told me that "If I am not with you, then I am against you."

    So, please do not pretend to be open minded. You are far from it.



    Please show me data point on where you have changed, since the Death or Remy Presas and you decided to make a push even though you had quit the art years before.

    First, Do not put words into my mouth. State what I told you in person, or quote what I have written.
    Otherwise I can say things like the follow, " You are a paper tiger" well at least I know what you meant to say or imply. It gets nowhere, and is part of the red herring statement I provided above. Thank you for making that point for me.

    There are not 85 sources talking about Atillo Balintawak. There was Atillo.


    I have read many of the sources as well. Hence my position on this point.


    So, once again you get to say what is and what is not. You might be the final say in your class, just like a judge, yet when they get out into the world they have to live with the rest of the world where they no longer have power of people.

    You state I will not change or accept. I accepted that the grouping methodology was created by someone other than Villasin. The data presented made sense.

    I do consider other opinions. It is you and your students who are closed minded and not willing to accept a different opinion.

    So why do you make inflammatory statements, about others and statements that you know are issues.

    You could have just made an announcement, that certain people were provided a title and others were given position or inheritance of Atillo's system. Before you accuse others, maybe you should look at your own actions. I have stated before. And yes it is tiring.



    Really. My research was with Filipino's both in the US and in the PI and they all say one thing with the exception of Atillo.


    Atillo the senior was a member of the club. This is documented.

    Others such as Villasin did have their own club. And Villasin was the President of the Original Club. Why? Because he was an Attorney, and was used to leadership rules for logistics. Bacon was the founder and instructor.



    Paying homage to his Father's teachers is good.
    Paying respect to where the art of Balintawak went after 1952 is also good.
    Being a part of the grouped or ungrouped is not the issue here.


    As to agreeing to disagree, it seems we are on that page a lot. Yet, do not be surprised when people ask questions about your actions.



    Teaching them to appreciate both is good. Yet I wonder if you asked your students to believe the East is not the East anymore. But it is the West. So that means North as become South. Would there not be questions?

    I expect there would be questions from reasonable people.


    Peace
    Hi Jerome

    hmmm? Ok. Yet in the past that is what you have done, and that is what I wrote.


    Yes and no. As there are different opinions, and it seems it is your idea to make your opinion fact. And this is not the first time. Nor was there only one time.


    You state you enjoy a good conversation, yet I have never seen you change your point. You expect others to change their perspective and see your point of view.

    You have also told me that "If I am not with you, then I am against you."

    So, please do not pretend to be open minded. You are far from it.



    Please show me data point on where you have changed, since the Death or Remy Presas and you decided to make a push even though you had quit the art years before.

    First, Do not put words into my mouth. State what I told you in person, or quote what I have written.
    Otherwise I can say things like the follow, " You are a paper tiger" well at least I know what you meant to say or imply. It gets nowhere, and is part of the red herring statement I provided above. Thank you for making that point for me.

    There are not 85 sources talking about Atillo Balintawak. There was Atillo.


    I have read many of the sources as well. Hence my position on this point.


    So, once again you get to say what is and what is not. You might be the final say in your class, just like a judge, yet when they get out into the world they have to live with the rest of the world where they no longer have power of people.

    You state I will not change or accept. I accepted that the grouping methodology was created by someone other than Villasin. The data presented made sense.

    I do consider other opinions. It is you and your students who are closed minded and not willing to accept a different opinion.

    So why do you make inflammatory statements, about others and statements that you know are issues.

    You could have just made an announcement, that certain people were provided a title and others were given position or inheritance of Atillo's system. Before you accuse others, maybe you should look at your own actions. I have stated before. And yes it is tiring.



    Really. My research was with Filipino's both in the US and in the PI and they all say one thing with the exception of Atillo.


    Atillo the senior was a member of the club. This is documented.

    Others such as Villasin did have their own club. And Villasin was the President of the Original Club. Why? Because he was an Attorney, and was used to leadership rules for logistics. Bacon was the founder and instructor.



    Paying homage to his Father's teachers is good.
    Paying respect to where the art of Balintawak went after 1952 is also good.
    Being a part of the grouped or ungrouped is not the issue here.


    As to agreeing to disagree, it seems we are on that page a lot. Yet, do not be surprised when people ask questions about your actions.



    Teaching them to appreciate both is good. Yet I wonder if you asked your students to believe the East is not the East anymore. But it is the West. So that means North as become South. Would there not be questions?

    I expect there would be questions from reasonable people.


    Peace
     
  13. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Balintawak founder = Anciong Bacon. Pretty simple really!!!
     
  14. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Hello Dan,

    The deal is quite simple, all of the positions have been stated and restated by a small set of people, myself included, and there is nothing new happening or available for consideration. Brian VanCise posted an eloquent statement yesterday and we can leave it there. What more is there to be added? I'm leaving this right where it is unless I or someone else finds new verifiable data. As I said earlier this is an area where we will have to agree to disagree.

    I'm taking the information as published in the book Cebuano Eskrima as the most credible data to date. As with any research study it is possible that newer, more definitive data could be found, but that hasn't happened yet and may never happen. My current students will be passed along to my training partners and have their training expanded with the subset of Balintawak that best suits their interests, skills, abilities and needs. Since my curriculum is based on a blending of Tracy Kenpo and Modern Arnis as developed by my instructor Sifu Don Zanghi, there is a Balintawak component within the program. I've revised my flow chart to reflect the information that I have been able to gather and it does include GM Bacon, GM Maranga, GM Mongcol, GM Atillo, Manong Ted and Professor Presas. Beyond that there really isn't anything more to be said and nothing more to be gained within this thread... simply rehashing the same positions becomes quite boring very quickly and it has reached that point for me.

    Respectfully,

    Jerome
     
  15. DrBarber

    DrBarber Green Belt

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    Hey Rich,

    Thanks for the insights and info. Will put them to good use and make you proud, have learned a lot already.

    Respectfully,

    Jerome Barber, Ed. D.
    Independent Escrima-Kenpo-Arnis Associates
     
  16. MacJ_007

    MacJ_007 White Belt

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    Ah this issue again lol. The problem with GM Atillo's group is that they keep on revising their statements and history. They had a problem identifying themselves with other Balintawaks in the past due to the fact that they refused to acknowledge that GM Anciong Bacon is the sole founder of Balintawak system and kept on insisting that Balintawak was founded by multiple people. Now they are linking themselves to the Saavedras to prove their legitimacy? No wonder I see some of his students claiming Saavedra's Eskrima nowadays lol.

    Now as for the difference between Atillo's Balintawak and Anciong's Balintawak? There's a hefty difference but I'd rather not go into this lengthy discussion as it will be useless since people would only understand it superficially. Only thru play would you truly understand the difference. But one thing is for sure, if you don't practice zero mind, then you are not Anciong's Balintawak.
     
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