Hapkido instructor claims that jump spinning kicks in TKD came from Hapkido

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Acronym, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I'm pretty sure you aren't allowed to kick into the knee of a standing leg when kicking. To do so would cause permanent injury to the knee.

    The knee kick that you are thinking about is not the same one I'm thinking about. The one that I'm thinking about would be like you standing on one leg and I stop into the knee of that leg with a side kick.
     
  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I've only seen front sweeps in mma. in general not many MMA fighters actually know how to sweep. In general not many MMA fighters actually use a high kick to the head.
     
  3. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    It's perfectly legal.

    What are the rules concerning kicking in MMA? Can you kick somebody in the knee? - Quora
     
  4. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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  5. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    The rules that I was able to find were very general. The UFC has a rule about unsportsman like conduct, which could be anything.

    There's rules against groin kicks but not against tiger clawing the groin. So is diger clawing the groin illegal or unsportsmanlike.

    If someone does a high kick and I side kick into their standing leg, depending on how that standing leg's knee is turned I can easily tear up the ligaments in that knee causing someone's career to end. So is that illegal or unsportsman like? Since kicks to the knees are allowed in some MMA venues. Some MMA organizations ban knee kicks all together.

    What I want to know specifically is, Do the rules allow the defender to strike the knee of a standing leg of a kicker. So if someone is standing one leg, can I just start doing side kicks into the knee.
    So instead of kicking the groin. Can I target the knee of the standing leg. Or would that be unsportsman like in their books?
     
  7. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Or is it only unsportsman like if my opponent suffers a knee injury that ends is career. Or is it fair game if it doesn't cause injury.?
     
  8. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    From what I can tell there's no rule against it, although people were wanting a rule against it at one point due to jon jones. I would assume that unless there's a specific clause about it, that it's allowed, although like you said who decides what's considered unsportsmanlike? @Tez3 might be able to give us a more exact answer to this..
     
  9. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    You are allowed to do any number of spoiler techniques.

    Here's Weidman doing one which Broke silvas leg. Weidman had specifically prepared for it

     
  10. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Just so you know, the winner was using BJJ. That particular standing wrist lock is part of BJJ. I've been taught it by multiple BJJ instructors.

    I don't personally use it in sparring because it's kind of a tricky move to pull off and I haven't practiced it enough. (It's also kind of nasty because it hits quickly in actual application and doesn't give much time for the recipient to tap out. My wrists are kind of messed up with arthritis and bone spurs and I try to avoid using techniques in sparring that I don't want my sparring partners to turn around and do back to me.)

    I do occasionally go for other stand-up wrist locks in sparring (and have had them used against me). The vast majority of the time they don't "work" in the sense of producing a tap/break or a throw. However the threat of the wrist getting locked can force the opponent to move and thereby give up a more advantageous position.
     
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  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I've seen similar wrist locks in Chin Na. Where you lock the wrist using the body . If I can find my Chin Na book, I'll take a scan of it and show you the picture of it. The concept is always the same regardless of the system. Bend the joint in a way that it naturally doesn't bend.

    But I'll post that picture once I find my book.
     
  12. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Is it in Aikido?
     
  13. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    If the person is aware of the danger of a joint being locked then that person would move in a way that makes it more difficult. Small joint locks are easier to pull off if you can distract the person with something else while you are initiating the lock.

    If a person has experienced the lock before then they will recognize the feel of the other person's hand positioning for the lock and that makes it harder as well. In applications these locks should hit quickly, there shouldn't be time for them to do much of anything but feel the pain and stop fighting. There's no gradual onset of pain that you can feel creeping up unless you are doing a demo.

    It's even worse when you get someone who thinks they can fight their way out of it, because once you get it to the lock in position, you'll do all you can to prevent them from breaking their own joints.
     
  14. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Just so you know, that counter is totally legal under standard MMA rules.

    I have sparred at a school where they allowed groin kicks. It didn't eliminate high kicks, but it did make you a lot more aware of setting them up carefully.

    The thing about high kicks is that they are high risk/ high reward. In order to make the reward worth the risk in contexts where counters like the ones you mentioned are allowed, the kicker needs to have a few skills in place:

    • They need to know how to set up the kick in such a way that their opponent has minimal opportunity to execute the counter. Timing, position, relative movement of the combatants, and more all contribute to this.
    • They need to know how to mitigate the risks if they do get countered. If they get swept, they need to know how to fall safely and defend themselves on the ground. If they get counter punched, they need to know how to cover their head and move offline while kicking.
    • They need their high kicks to be fast and deceptive enough to negate the disadvantage which comes from a kick which travels further and therefore allows more reaction time.
    • They need their high kicks to be powerful enough so that the potential reward (a one-shot knockout) is worth the added risks.
    I'm not personally a huge fan of high kicks, but I have seen a number of fighters show that they can absolutely make the rewards worth the risk. (Generally these are pro-level fighters. I wouldn't recommend most casual hobbyists throw high kicks in a real fight.)
     
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  15. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I haven't seen that particular setup in Aikido, but I'm not an Aikido practitioner and don't know everything in the art. Perhaps one of the Aikidoka on the board can let us know.
     
  16. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Exactly. Wristlock finishes aren't the most common submission in BJJ, but they do happen because competitors will get so caught up in defending a choke or armlock or throw that they forget to notice their wrist is in danger.

    Yep. However sometimes you can use their reaction as they reposition to avoid the wrist lock to improve your own position.
     
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  17. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I knew it wouldn't eliminate the head kicks but it changes how freely one does the the high kicks especially if someone is targeting the groin or the standing leg.

    I see this happen often with TKD fighters who fight against people who look for the high kick. The first round the TKD person does his high kick and the majority of those high kicks result in being swept. It takes about 5 or 6 sweeps before the TKD person starts backing out. If you are getting punished because you are kicking high, then you are less willing to kick high. If you get kicked in the groin 5 or 6 times when you kick high, then how likely are you going to kick high a 7th time.?
     
  18. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I agree 100%. The person who counters high kicks and exploits them also needs a skill set of their own to deal with the high kicks. I still cringe when I see people trying to back out of the range of kicks. Or when they try to move side ways to avoid kicks. The defender doesn't understand kicks and the mechanics of kicks, then you can just kick them all day.

    Sort of like when boxer's try to keep their distance in the Boxer vs kick boxer videos. They don't realize that they keep putting their legs within that kicks power zone. Everything from stances direction of movement will play a role in countering a kick.

    It took me 3 or 4 continuous moves just set my brother up with this one. I can't set him up by waiting for a kick and then responding. There no way I can do this type of sweep from a stand still. It would be nice if I was that quick, but he would have read my intent and I would have been kicked with something else. If a person doesn't understand the motion of the kick or how the body shifts in order to kick, then there's no way he /she will be able to exploit a high kick. They would be better off rushing the kicker and hope that, the kicker doesn't like front kicks.
    [​IMG]
     
  19. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    One thing I want to learn is how to go into one Wrist lock and flow into another. I think I would have better success if I can use my opponent's escape to trap them into another wrist lock.
     
  20. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, if someone only trains and spars in a ruleset where there are no negative consequences for a high kick, then they will lack the knowledge of how to set them up safely in a different context.

    They've gotten a lot more popular as fighters have figured out how to use them correctly.


    You'll notice that almost all of these knockouts happened when the fighter being kicked either didn't see the kick coming, wasn't in a position to defend against it, or was fooled into thinking the kick was coming to a different target.
    Here are a few ...


    It's hard to find videos which focus on just sweeps as separate from throws, but this one has some really nice sweeps mixed in with the throws and slams:123
     

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