Hapkido instructor claims that jump spinning kicks in TKD came from Hapkido

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Acronym, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Do you know how ridiculous you look with arm chair philosophy analysis of a fight? You weren't the one getting a kick thrown at you. You have NO IDEA how you would react unless you actually compete in there.
     
  2. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    and since you are so hung up on sweeps. Here is a successful one. It didn't change the outcome of the fight

     
  3. dvcochran

    dvcochran Grandmaster

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    Sir, that was eloquently said. I admire someone who can break down things so well.

    The documented raw processing time of a signal from the eyes, to the brain, resulted, and sent to an extremity is 3/10's of a second. The last time I looked this up was over a decade ago so possibly the computer/gamer age has made this slightly faster as you stated.

    I like using the bleacher coach or armchair quarterback analogy. Most of the time it is much easier for a person to see and process an action from a distance. Ala, the bleacher coach. They always have a better answer to a players/fighters action and 'know' exactly what should have happened. Put this same person In the exact same encounter and they may not even be able to register what just happened to them.
    In other words, it is much easier to see a punch being thrown from 10 feet away versus one being thrown while coming out of a clinch.

    That is a great description of Uriah Hall's KO in you last paragraph.
    To add to the opponents quandary, the fake initiated a .3/sec mental process immediately followed by another .3/sec process. Assuming 100% efficiency (highly unlikely) that left the opponent roughly .15/sec to actually make a physical response.
    That is a very, very tall order. And usually where the armchair quarterbacks and bleacher coaches start chiming in.

    There is seldom one thing that makes a KO work. The chess match, speed, timing, fatigue, etc... all play a factor.

    For me, having knocked out others and also having been knocked out in competition puts this in a different light. It sure will give a person the yips for a while after being KO'ed.
     
  4. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    It depends on the type of sweep being used. back sweep probably won't work it. I would go with a stronger sweep or a foot hook.
     
  5. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Yeah it's a complicated method but it makes sense when done in the context of TMA techniques. If I move my foot to the left, then my head and torso are off your centerline. If I shuffle left or right then I'm completely off your centerline. if you only move your head then I can still strike your torso.
     
  6. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Believe what you wish. I spent an entire year showing that I can do what I claim and showing video of it. won't be going through that again. train your response and you'll do what you trained.
     
  7. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    You did what exactly? It might come as a chock to your inflated ego but I have no idea who you are.
     
  8. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Depends on how you train it. Have they tried to knock you out?
     
  9. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    Some have tried. I've done hard sparring before and have been in fights. I've been kicked in the face before and I have been caught with my hands down, I've been kneed, pinned, and kicked in the groin. I've thrown people before, including once in a real fight.

    I've broken my finger twice in sparring, I've been dropped to my knees from kicks and punches to my stomach. I haven't been slammed yet but I have been thrown. I've been dazed as well.

    The truth is that none of that matters to you and will not change your thoughts on what I've said
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2020
  10. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Where did this take place? Most kung fu places that I know of are opposed to sparring, especially hard sparring.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    As has been pointed out to you before, there's far more variation in MA than you're aware of.
     
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  12. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd call it a matter of stylistic tradeoffs vs "errors."

    You are correct that if you completely eschew boxing style head movement (bobbing, weaving, leaning to avoid head strikes), then you don't run the risk of inadvertently leaning into a strike (typically a kick or knee, sometimes an uppercut) that you have misjudged. On the other hand, if you rely only on footwork and blocks/parries to protect your head, then you will likely get hit with some punches that you might have avoided with head movement.

    The professional MMA fighters who choose to include head movement in their repertoire are very aware of the dangers and the downsides of that tactic. They know that it caries more risk in MMA than in boxing, due to the possibility of kicks and knees. They use the tactic because they judge the rewards to be worth the risks. Not all top level MMA fighters use that kind of head movement, but some great champions make extensive use of it and have proven that it can be very effective even in that context.

    Perhaps I didn't explain myself clearly, but this is all the same stuff I was talking about. When I talk about the limits of human reaction, I'm not talking about consciously thinking "oh, I see that he's throwing a spinning wheel kick, I should counter by moving in at a 45 degree angle and sweeping the support leg." I'm talking about the neurological limits of the human body to perceive that any sort of movement is taking place at all.

    The way around those limits, as I mentioned earlier, is being able to read the opponent and process what sort of attack is coming before it actually begins. The methods you allude to (defocused gaze, peripheral vision, observing weight shifts, developing subconscious pattern recognition, etc) are standard fare among fighters for developing that ability.

    You do, BTW, need to process what sort of punch or kick is coming. You may not do it consciously - there's generally not enough time for that against a fast, skilled fighter. The identification of what's coming happens via subconscious pattern recognition under the hood. If you can't distinguish between specific attacks, then you'll try to block a high punch and get hit in the gut. You'll try to parry a jab and get hit with a hook. You'll try to check a low kick and get kicked in the face. The training you describe is exactly the sort of thing which builds that sort of pattern recognition.

    The flip side, of course, is for a fighter to be able to defeat his opponent's read on him. Feints, fakes, non-telegraphic movement, establishing patterns then switching them up, starting movements with multiple ending options - anything to prevent the opponent's brain from being able to process what is happening quickly enough to react until the attack is on the way and it's too late to react. Uriah Hall's spin kick was extremely fast, powerful, and pinpoint accurate, but the real deciding factor in his KO was that he won the battle of deception vs perception which prevented his opponent from ever seeing the kick coming.
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's a strategic battle over pattern recognition. Can I recognize your patterns (both patterns of techniques, and the pattern of movement that leads to a specific technique) and can you hide those patterns from me.
     
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  14. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    If you train to slip a punch then your natural response will eventually be to slip the punch. If you don't train to slip a punch then your natural reaction won't be to slip a punch.

    When a person isn't fighting for their life or fighting against someone who is trying to take their head off. Then that person should be training responses to known thing. The more you train and repeat solutions, the more it becomes natural and it will eventually be the only response that you know and you will forget how you used to respond before you trained.

    If you don't train your solutions with repetition, then they won't be there in an instant. If you know an attack (of any type) then you can train a natural response to that attack either to evade or counter. You may decide to do one solution over the other or you may do both. This way when you are in the heat of a fight you don't have to think about what needs to be done. Your body will move on it's own as if you never had to think about it.


    If you train in this way then it doesn't matter if someone is trying to knock you out. Your response will be the same unless you are scared of getting hit, which is something totally different. You can still get dazed by someone who isn't trying to knock your head off. You can still get knocked out by someone who isn't trying to knock your head off. Here's proof of that.

    You'll see some of these guys not hitting their hardest still knocking people out. So this assumption that you aren't at significant risk unless you are trying to "knock someone's head off" is something I don't buy into. I've sparred with too many people who knew how to drive their power to know that I still have to be careful
     
  15. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    I wrote "most".
     
  16. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    This is true, nothing is going to be without a "payment of risk" and the type of footwork that one should use is the one that helps them to safely set up the next technique. The weaving that boxers do would make it difficult to flow into a kick, but it definitely flows into punches.

    Kung fu and other TMA's factor in other attacks and try to pick a middle ground, where it's not the best but it allows them to do the most things (which isn't always a benefit to be ok at more vs great in a few).

    I'm going to say some do and there are those who don't. lol


    There are others, just didn't feel like search those guys lol.



    I couldn't resist.
     
  17. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    And wrestlers duck into knees. They make mistakes all the time. It's called being human.

    I'm sure you're perfect though.
     
  18. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Rhonda's striking would have been better if she did have head movement. Unfortunately she had a coach who was blowing smoke up her *** about how good her boxing was. (This is the same coach who wouldn't lift a finger to help her in the gym until she became a big star and he saw a meal ticket.)
     
  19. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Here's a clip with some better examples of good head movement in MMA.
     
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  20. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    I actually trained pattern recognition in the sparring class. I so trained what I refer to as "Pattern Programing" which is where I want you to recognize my pattern, so I can change it up on you. So I do a pattern so that you'll learn it and then I change it up on you because I know you are expecting the pattern but you get something else. So I'll program you to recognize my pattern and then exploit that when you learn it.123
     

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