Hapkido instructor claims that jump spinning kicks in TKD came from Hapkido

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Acronym, Dec 24, 2020.

  1. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That sort of lock flow is commonly taught in arts like Aikido, Hapkido, Silat, and Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, but I haven't had much luck with it. Generally a savvy opponent will defend his wrist by fixing his position and alignment so that the wrist is safe from follow ups. What I've had more luck with is using the threat of the wrist lock to break grips or move the opponents arm out of the way so I can get a superior angle or momentarily weaken their structure to set up a strike.
     
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  2. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    This is going to be a long one. You posted some good videos.

    That will all change once the fighters become skilled at taking advantage of the high kicks. Then it will be back to the low kicks.

    For example, if he saw enough of the kick to shell up like this then he could equally train to make moving foward at a 45 degree angle towards the standing leg a trainted reponse. The closer he is to the kicker the less effective that kick will be. I can tell by how close he is that is well within range attack that standing leg.

    The only time I've blocked a kick like this was at the last minute against a round house to my ribs. The kick was part of a counter that came after I attack and I didn't have this much time to respond. 45 degrees forward (left or right ) would have taking a lot of this kick. His stance is set up perfectly to move forward to his left, but he didn't so he ate that kick.

    Even if it was side kick, if he could move forward before the power came then he would have still been in a good position.
    upload_2020-12-28_17-35-29.png

    Front leg sweep... Missed opportunity
    upload_2020-12-28_17-49-44.png


    Moving backwards instead of forwards. Moving forward. Side kick to the standing leg would have broke the power in this kick. Instead he moves back.
    upload_2020-12-28_17-54-14.png

    There were a quite a few which were good kicks but worse defense. Things like bending over and getting kicked in the face is a never ending lecture in Kung Fu schools. There were like 7 kicks where the defender lens into the the incoming kick. To me this is the most dangerous kick along with brutal leg kicks.

    The reason that this kick is so dangerous is because it exploits the limitations of the body. People with broad shoulders / wide chest, have an opening right down the center of the body. The only way to close it is to not face forward like what you see in this picture.. The second limitation is a person's field of vision. The kick is traveling outside of his field of vision and he literally cannot see it. He can see the knee and the shin, but he can't see the foot which is why he's caught in the head lights.

    When the brain can't compute the arrival time of a strike it cannot see and when a strike is outside of the field of vision then brain will compute other stuff. That's what makes this kick more dangerous. Everyone else saw the kick coming and just did the wrong thing. This guy get nailed and never sees it coming. He seels the knee, but not the business end of this kick.
    upload_2020-12-28_18-7-9.png

    But everything else were of people leaning into the kicks like they were trying to use the kick like a pillow. That's a foundation issue, . Back to basics


    I saw the Tony Ferguson sweep. I'm glad he gave it a try but it look like he was still trying to figure it out just how to use it. Not sure I would call it a Kung Fu sweep thought.

    I don't think I've seen this one before, but this is a guy who understands high kicks. I'm not saying that because he sweeps the guy, I'm staying it because of what's needed to set it up. Which is why did a screen shot of this. The timing that is required to pull sweeps off is insane compared to some of the other stuff. Which is why I was kind of surprised when Acronym really didn't realize that I knew what timing is. He knew from his first movement that the kick was coming..

    The kicker only sees the head and the torso, but the guy sweeping has to be aware of foot position in relations to the kicker. The sweeper's left foot is in range (remember I often say people don't pay attention to their feet.), the kicer is paying attention. That left foot is already starting the spin. Back sweeps can either drop, or lean and that's what causes the kick to miss.

    He has a good "Old man sweep" That's the sweep where you are too old to lower your sweep, The lower the sweep the more power the sweep will have. The sweep catches the back of the knee so the legs just folds. Had the sweep been on the Achilles Tendon of the kicker, then the kicker would have been in the air, then on his back. But excellent timing on it. The other thing that I like about that "old man sweep" is that you can turn it into a low spinning heel kick.
    upload_2020-12-28_18-26-30.png


    This kicks and sweeps have a similar motion. If you can do one, then you should be able to do the other. Just as easily
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes.
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    And the less experienced your opponent is against them, the easier they are to pull off. Most decent kickers would consider my kicks so-so. Against folks who don’t train against high kicks, I can still sometimes get them in. Against someone with a bit of training against high kicks, I won’t even try.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That kind of flow drill is one of my favorite practices.
     
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  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I’ve seen some nice videos where one fighter used a kick over and over to the body. Once his opponent gets the pattern and starts reacting early, he switches to a head kick. Have seen the same with setting up big punches.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The flow is more effective on less experienced folks. Once you know the flow, you can counter beyond that first move.
     
  8. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    What I think you might be missing is that the "errors" you see in the fighters getting knocked out aren't due to ignorance or lack of skill or training. They are "forced" errors induced by the attacker.

    For example, why were several of the fighters caught leaning into the kicks? A common reason is that the attacker had faked them them out into expecting a punch from a different angle which that head movement would have been an appropriate response for. Another reason is that the attacker has just been dominating the wrestling and the defender is both tired and trying escape the clinch and regain their posture (but gets knocked out before they can fix their structure).

    The defender gets caught moving backwards? Yep, the attacker started the combination with aggressive punching and waited to kick until they saw their opponent was moving back and not in a good position to change direction to counter the kick.

    That spin wheel kick KO by Uriah Hall - you say that his opponent "if he saw enough of the kick to shell up like this then he could equally train to make moving foward at a 45 degree angle towards the standing leg a trainted reponse". The problem is, that his opponent just saw movement but wasn't able to process in time what the attack actually was. I don't think he even knew for sure if it was a kick, a punch, a fake, or what direction it was coming from.

    This is part of why high kicks work better at the professional level than at the amateur level. Human reaction time is limited by the speed of our nervous system. Typically about 1/5 to 1/4 of a second is the fastest we can perceive a stimulus and initiate any sort of response. If we have to interpret the stimulus and decide on an appropriate reaction, then the time becomes significantly longer. So how can fighters effectively react to and counter punches that are completed in less than a 1/4 second? The secret is that the process doesn't start after the punch begins. A good fighter reads his opponent, knows what attacks are possible from a given position, and then picks up the cues to know (at least subconsciously on a probabilistic level) what type of strike is coming and begin the counter as (or even before) the attack begins. If a fighter can throw a high kick fast enough to so that the opponent can't see it coming and non-telegraphically enough that the opponent can't read it, then the unpredictability of the attack may make it worth it. Most casual hobbyists throw high kicks which are slow enough and telegraphed enough that they aren't too hard to counter.

    In the case of the Uriah Hall spinning wheel kick KO, the kick took approximately 3/4 of a second to travel from the ground to Adam Cella's face. He proceeded the kick with a fake in the opposite direction. (If that fake had been a real attack, then moving forward at a 45 degree angle could have been a costly mistake for his opponent.) He then transitioned seamlessly from that fake to the spin kick with no hesitation, wasted movement, or telegraphing. By the time Cella's brain had a chance to process what was happening, it was too late. Probably he had no idea what Hall was actually throwing until he woke up and watched the replay video.
     
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  9. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I should add that Hall not only executed the kick perfectly, but he also chose the right moment against the right type of opponent. If he had been up against a fighter who liked to dart in and out of range and whose default reaction to an unknown stimulus was to bounce back, then the kick would probably have missed. If he had been up against an aggressive wrestler who was looking for any opportunity to shoot in low, then he might have been taken down. However Cella was demonstrating a style of slowly stalking forward, blocking punches, and looking for an opening to counterstrike. This gave Hall the perfect opening for the setup he used.
     
  10. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    To me they are errors because of the way I've been trained. For example, It's forbidden to bend over like that for the same reason. This is stressed so much that other TMAs stress the importance of having an up right stance. If you need to duck, then lower your stance. If you need to slip a punch then do so by moving your feet and not by weaving your head.

    The reason why the teachers have such a stick up their butts about it is because of the videos that you show. You start leaning into thing things like kicks, punches, and knees. My sparring partner had a habit of doing the same thing and his head was always moving into the firing path of my fist. The same thing I saw in that video is the exact same stuff my Karate teacher told me as a kid. It's the same thing that 3 Jow Ga Sifu's have said. It's the same thing that even these kids are saying


    So it's not just me. Lean forward with your face and you'll eat a bunch of bad things. So for me I have no other way to look at it. Don't get me wrong, the kicks were solid. I'm not discounting

    Train bad habits and they will show during game time. Whatever you don't know or should have known will become clear during game time. Bad habit and lack of knowledge can be induced by your attacker. Just because the attacker induced it doesn't clear the reaction from being bad habit or lack of experience.

    A person can have experience with fighting but no experience with punching. Olympic TKD. A person can have experience with punching but no experience with kicking.. Boxing. Why do some fighters eat the kicks and other's do not? What is it that one fighter knows that the other one doesn't?

    Change your stance height and you can duck without bending over. In boxing you can can do more of that because you don't have to worry about knees and kicks. You still have to watch out for upper cuts though.

    Watch any Muay Thai fight and you'll see very little of that type of bending over. Does it mean that you won't get KO'd by a kick? of course not, but what it does mean is that you won't get KO'd by bowing to a kick. And that means it's one less opportunity you are giving to your opponent to knock you out.

    People ask question about repetition in TMA's as being a waste, but few every bring up the fact that repetition can also train out the bad habits. So the question is are they are training out their bad habits and natural tendencies that sometime create the bad habits.

    I'll have to look at the video again. Because when I pulled the screenshots I was specifically looking for when the fighter knew that the kick was coming. When I played that video he moved back at the same time the motion of the kick started.

    The natural response is to move away from danger and not run towards it. A lot of that has to be trained when dealing with strikes because some of the safe areas for strikes are actually closer to the opponent. You want to prevent your opponent from kicking, get closer to him. You still have to watch out for knees and other short range strikes, but you don't have to work about a high kick to the head if you are in tight putting the pressure and changing angles.

    All I see when I spar is movement. Punching movement and kicking movements are different and the movement actually begins before the punch or kick shows up. For kicks the body shifts a certain way, For punches the body will shift weight another way. The best way to detect this movement is to learn how to look at things using the rods of your eye instead of the cones. The cones will give you detail but the rods will allow you to detect motion better than the cones. Sounds crazy but this is true.

    A lot of times when you see me just taking hits from my sparring partner, it's because I'm training my eye sight to learn the movements. Think of it like this. When a big dog walks by you focus on it. That's the cones in your eye working. But when you catch small things like gnats and mosquitoes flying your cones are picking that up. Then when you switch to your cones to try to smash the mosquito or gnat then you will sometimes loose site of it. Then you'll switch back to your rods in your eyes to pick up movement. You may not be able to tell if it's a gnat or a mosquito you just know it's a bug flying.

    When I spar, I don't look at your chest, or your eyes, or your hands or your body. I will actually look a few feet behind where you are actually standing, this allows me to detect your motion. Defensive motion looks different from attacking motion as well. But when you see the attacking motion, don't process if it's a kick or a punch. View it as as an attack that is about to happen, then try to land your attack before your your opponent can launch his / hers.

    All of this sounds easy but it isn't because using rods means that I'm looking at the person out of focus and the natural tendency is to put things in focus. It's also something that I would train as light that only stays on if your are pressing it. I say this because I did this for about 30 minutes and it took a while for my eyes to be able to focus. Activate it for a minute and then turn it off for 5.

    This is why I don't process what kind of punch or what kind of kick is coming my way. The only thing I need to process is when you are about to do something and was it a weight shift for a punch or for a kick.
    I don't think what comes next because I don't have time to think about what technique I'm going to respond with. My sparring class address things like that. Again I know I'm probably making this sound easy but it's not. I had to train a lot of bad habits out and natural reactions and I wasn't able to get rid of them all.

    The last person that I thought how to do this was floored when he was able to do it just once. I knew he got it right because he described it exactly how it looks and feels. I could see the amazement in his eyes, that reminded me of how I felt when I first did it. The time issue that you speak of changes because from the start you are reducing the amount of data that you have to process and when you do that, things look differently and are processed differently.

    But you can only get like this when you spar to learn. It's a learned skill set and not a triggered one.
     
  11. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    This falls under this category for me. It's the same thing said in one of my posts. about the skill level of an opponent will have an effect on how freely you do your kicks. An aggressive wrestler is of a skill level that makes standing on one leg not able to evade risker than someone who isn't used to dealing with a lot of kicks. A good example would probably be someone like Jobo who would suggest putting most of the training into ground fighting. So if that person only knows the fight on the ground and not on his feet then kicks will be a problem. But if that same person had someone kick him until he could get in and smother the kick then it' becomes a different level.

    This isn't just a kicking thing. When we fight someone of equal or higher skill level, we do not take the same risks that we would with someone of a lower skill level than us. By lower, I don't mean can't fight. Lower skill level could just simply mean that you are better at kicking than he is at defending and reading kicks. He could be a higher skill level at boxing if you decide to box him.

    Fighting southpaw is another example of how people can be skilled. A south paw may be more familiar with fighting right hand fighters than his opponent is at fighting left hand fighter. This would be another example of being outskilled.
    But if they wrestle it may not make a difference. So when I say outskilled, don't take it as an over all thing about an opponent or fighter. If I can't fight on the ground then I'm outskilled in that area when compared to someone who does fight on the ground. There's no other reality than that. Which is why I do my best to not fight in people's areas of expertise. It's better for me if you fight in mine.
     
  12. Buka

    Buka Sr. Grandmaster

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    Great point. I believe that a style with high kicks and high kickers should have groin contact, not only as an accepted part of the curriculum, but as an encouraged part of the ruleset.

    I always asked students, "Do you have a mirror on the back of a door or on a bureau or whatever? Fellas, next time you take a hot shower and are privately in front of a mirror, throw your best high kick while you're naked. What you will see is the very definition of open. "

    And, yes, naked is key. You'll see the danger and won't soon forget it. Go ahead, give it a try.
     
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  13. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    [
    You can sweep and kick a person in the groin regardless of him kicking
     
  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd point out that Muay Thai doesn't have the grappling threat you see in MMA. The different context changes the math (risk/reward) for almost every stance element.
     
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  15. JowGaWolf

    JowGaWolf Grandmaster

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    That's not the issue. The issue is the amount of risk. I consider myself to be very good at sweeping people. If you give me 2 options
    1. sweep you when standing on 2 legs
    2. sweep you when standing on 1 legs

    I prefer #2 because, when you stand on 1 leg you can't evade and don't have another leg that will be available to help you re-cover. When someone kicks, I know they are stuck to that one spot for a short period of time, which is my window of opportunity to advance and strike my opponent. It's the one point of time where you can do very little to counter an incoming attack . Some systems try to initiate a guard while kicking, other's drop the hand. Having a guard up when kick covers one of the openings that are available. So it gives me one less option. Because I don't always have to attack the leg. I may choose to go for your head with a punch instead of sweeping the leg or I may do both? There are a lot of options when a person stands on one leg. The slower a person kicks, the longer that person is on one leg, and the longer those options will be available.
     
  16. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    I stand on one one leg when I throw a right hand as well, as do most people.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    ???
     
  18. Acronym

    Acronym Master of Arts

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    Brain bugg. I meant that I lean forward and only have support from the ball of the foot in my supporting leg, which makes me an easier target to sweep than when both feet are firmly placed on the ground
     
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  19. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Closer to a typo. I normally put a extra N in or the second N in the wrong place for that word thats the funny thing.

    I can semantics pretty well, thats how i know its tiresome, tidious and doesnt really settle or solve anything. I only really bring it up if i think another words fits a situation better.
     
  20. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Wait your meant to move your legs to slip? I normally literally move my head/torso when i do it. I took to having habit of if i strike with my right hand i move my head to the left and the reverse with the left so i at least move it to avoid getting counter clocked. Just tried it out, i normally move my torso with my head to either side, so that might translate to using my legs.

    Id argue that habit is better than keeping my head stationary. :p123
     

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