Good teaching clip

[guy b]

You say you understand the basics, but by your posting, you clearly don't. It has nothing to do with your opinion of the lineage.

You have simply never posted anything suggesting the faintest knowledge of WSLVT basics.

That's probably because he's too busy gathering "evidence" for the great expose' later on

If anyone remotely interested in YM VT was reading this thread then chances are they have a good idea of the argument against WT guard with hands on centre, and the simple solution. It is a shame those pages of nothing can't be deleted though.

 

[Juany118]

Answer to what?

The discussion was only about illustrating the failure of the WT center guard and wedging principle.

I never asked anyone else what they would do in this scenario, and I never said anything about WSLVT being superior.

The superiority thing was focused at Guy, not you. I am actually appreciative of the depth you went into clarifying etc. That said, when saying X is better than Y, you invite someone to say "well what about Z?"

You say you understand the basics, but by your posting, you clearly don't. It has nothing to do with your opinion of the lineage.

I already explained that I have said nothing about WSLVT as an art in this thread. I compared 2 videos and then spoke of alternatives to the man/wu scenario.

Elsewhere I have spoken largely about things like teaching philosophy, with quotes and the debate regarding flow vs imposition, again with quotes. Since the WSL student that my lineage spawns from is one that you have said "has issues" (as you say of virtually all but PB) a difference in what amounts to philosophical minutia would not be unheard of.

 

[guy b]

Elsewhere I have spoken largely about things like teaching philosophy, with quotes and the debate regarding flow vs imposition, again with quotes. Since the WSL student that my lineage spawns from is one that you have said "has issues" (as you say of virtually all but PB) a difference in what amounts to philosophical minutia would not be unheard of.

Gary Lam added his own teaching curriculum to the system. It is still the same system at the nuts and bolts level if you remove what GL added.

 

[guy b]

I already explained that I have said nothing about WSLVT as an art in this thread. I compared 2 videos and then spoke of alternatives to the man/wu scenario.

Please don't do this in future. I'm really not interested. If you have something to add that is on topic then go ahead.

 

[LFJ]

I compared 2 videos and then spoke of alternatives to the man/wu scenario.

One of your initial posts on the man/wu topic seemed as if you were in support of a center guard, citing center line theory. Is that the case?

Elsewhere I have spoken largely about things like teaching philosophy, with quotes and the debate regarding flow vs imposition, again with quotes. Since the WSL student that my lineage spawns from is one that you have said "has issues" (as you say of virtually all but PB) a difference in what amounts to philosophical minutia would not be unheard of.

The very basics of the system do not amount to philosophical minutia.

If your VT was missing these elements from the very first form it completely changes everything in regards to understanding the VT approach to fighting and using the system to develop skills for that.

Did your previous WSLVT training involve a center guard?

 

[guy b]

The superiority thing was focused at Guy, not you.

You appear to lead an active imaginary life. If you aren't just KPM and are an actual person then I would ask you to please just stop replying if you don't want to talk normally. I have no desire to fight a stupid battle on a forum with a person I don't know because I get absolutely nothing out of it. It is a complete waste of my time, and yours. All I really want to do is talk about YM VT. I don't have any interest in mainland styles or any other system, including TWC.

 

[KPM]

You appear to lead an active imaginary life. If you aren't just KPM and are an actual person then I would ask you to please just stop replying if you don't want to talk normally..

Let's see, in the past Guy has accused me of being Saul Goodman. Now he thinks I am Juany118! I guess it never occurred to him that I'm not the only one that has a problem with the way he acts and posts in this forum.

 

[geezer]

You appear to lead an active imaginary life. If you aren't just KPM and are an actual person then I would ask you to please just stop replying if you don't want to talk normally. I have no desire to fight a stupid battle on a forum with a person I don't know because I get absolutely nothing out of it. It is a complete waste of my time, and yours. All I really want to do is talk about YM VT. I don't have any interest in mainland styles or any other system, including TWC.

Seriously Guy? After all the time you've wasted arguing with almost everybody else? And please remember, this is an open forum directed at all WC/WT/VT and open to input from people who practice other martial arts as well. It's fine to nudge people back on topic when thread drift gets out of hand, but you rally have no business trying to screen who posts because you don't like their perspective.

As for wasting time, I've allowed you to waste more than enough of mine. That's why I dropped out of this discussion ...after what began as a promising exchange with LFJ fizzled out. Neither of you two ever responded clearly to the question asked repeatedly by several posters, namely how do you advocate positioning your man sau and wu sau in WSL-PB-VT?

How about it? Or do you want to continue wasting everybody else's time?

 

[guy b]

Seriously Guy? After all the time you've wasted arguing with almost everybody else?

Juany is stalking me on every thread- it is creepy and pointless. I don't want to have meaningless arguments with random internet IDs. I do want to talk about YM VT.

That's why I dropped out of this discussion ...after what began as a promising exchange with LFJ fizzled out. Neither of you two ever responded clearly to the question asked repeatedly by several posters, namely how do you advocate positioning your man sau and wu sau in WSL-PB-VT

The reason for that was the 12 page spamming attack by KPM and friends. Actually I was hoping you would come back onto the thread and discuss because you are a much more reasonable person to talk to.

How about it?

I would love to discuss something meaningful rather than constantly have to respond to trolling. Where were we?

 

[guy b]

Let's see, in the past Guy has accused me of being Saul Goodman. Now he thinks I am Juany118! I guess it never occurred to him that I'm not the only one that has a problem with the way he acts and posts in this forum.

Please don't post meaningless drivel on discussion threads about VT

 

[KPM]

I would love to discuss something meaningful rather than constantly have to respond to trolling. Where were we?

Where were we? Really? Geezer CLEARLY asked "Neither of you two ever responded clearly to the question asked repeatedly by several posters, namely how do you advocate positioning your man sau and wu sau in WSL-PB-VT?" But once again you have avoided answering a direct question!!!

 

[LFJ]

...after what began as a promising exchange with LFJ fizzled out.

Nothing between the two of us fizzled out. Things just got muddled before you could carry on our discussion.

Neither of you two ever responded clearly to the question asked repeatedly by several posters, namely how do you advocate positioning your man sau and wu sau in WSL-PB-VT?

It's YMVT, what YM actually taught, not a WSL or PB invention.

Though, I was hoping illustration of the failings of occupying center would spark thought, rather than just asking what I do.

Because if you don't recognize the problem, you won't likely search for or accept the solution.

 

[geezer]

@KPM-- Many pages back, when we were discussing the most efficient position for the wu sau, I explained the rationale for the centerline wu-sau, namely that it was best positioned to protect in either direction simply by driving forward (if man sau was displaced). LFJ pointed out weaknesses with this ...which I basically agreed with, but if you are momentarily stuck with fighting with one hand, you are by definition compromised. driving the wu forward into a punch, biu-sau, etc. is about as good an option as any.

Of course there are other effective responses (besides just punching) depending on the angle and force of your opponent's attack. For example, a rebounding indoor pak-sau bouncing forward iinto a fak-sau against a wide-of-center punch, and so on. There are so many possibilities ...that is not really my concern. In fact the biggest hole in the traditional guard with man and wu stuck directly on center is not the straight line attack, but hooks and looping punches that angle in from the outside. LFJ said as much many pages back --but naturally stayed mum regarding a solution. No surprise there.

Anyway, over the years I've experimented with a wider-set guard derived from my FMA experience that puts my hands, or at least my bridges, about half way between center and side to basically split the difference. This way, my hands have about the same distance to travel to cover center as to cover the side. I've found that I can still use this effectively to wedge and deflect straight-on punches by simply driving forward and counterpunching, as well as delivering a pak, etc. when required. And, I'm also in a better position to address a looping or hooking shot from the outside.

I've also been looking closely at some of the stuff Alan Orr's doing. Not unlike some of what my DTE friends do. Any opinions or suggestions?

 

[LFJ]

Of course there are other effective responses (besides just punching) depending on the angle and force of your opponent's attack. For example, a rebounding indoor pak-sau bouncing forward iinto a fak-sau against a wide-of-center punch, and so on. There are so many possibilities ...that is not really my concern.

Your concern, I would think, should be whether or not any of those responses would work.

Chasing an incoming strike across center with paak-sau, when your lead arm has been removed, only leaves you more vulnerable as the rapid followup strike would cut into your center interrupting you before you'd be able to bounce a faak-sau back out.

That's the problem with chasing hands. It always leaves you in the past.

This way, my hands have about the same distance to travel to cover center as to cover the side. I've found that I can still use this effectively to wedge and deflect straight-on punches by simply driving forward and counterpunching, as well as delivering a pak, etc. when required. And, I'm also in a better position to address a looping or hooking shot from the outside.

In the presented scenario where your lead left is removed, a rear right held wider to the right of center would exacerbate your problem, requiring a longer distance to cross center with a chasing paak-sau.

 

[geezer]

Nothing between the two of us fizzled out. Things just got muddled before you could carry on our discussion.



It's YMVT, what YM actually taught, not a WSL or PB invention.

Though, I was hoping illustration of the failings of occupying center would spark thought, rather than just asking what I do.

Because if you don't recognize the problem, you won't likely search for or accept the solution.

^^^^ Sure, WSL VT is authentic. And functional. I get that. It's part of what YM taught. It's not everything he taught, or the only way to understand YM VT, or good WC in general. But if that's what you believe, fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm in no mood to argue matters of faith!

As far as searching for solutions, that's what the study of the martial arts is. And, to my knowledge, a perfect solution that works for everybody doesn't exist. Outside of religion, anyway.

 

[LFJ]

^^^^ Sure, WSL VT is authentic. And functional. I get that. It's part of what YM taught. It's not everything he taught, or the only way to understand YM VT, or good WC in general. But if that's what you believe, fine. You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm in no mood to argue matters of faith!

There are many photos of YM. Any of him with a WT guard?

 

[Marnetmar]

There are many photos of YM. Any of him with a WT guard?

Oh Jesus Christ

 

[geezer]

Your concern, I would think, should be whether or not any of those responses would work.

In the presented scenario where your lead left is removed, a rear right held wider to the right of center would exacerbate your problem, requiring a longer distance to cross center with a chasing paak-sau.

Of course, a wider (further from center) positioning of the rear guard creates a longer distance to respond with a pak-sau to a centerline attack. It also shortens the distance to defend an outside gate attack, and has negligible effect on the time it takes to launch a counterpunch. But that counterpunch is even more likley to pass by the inside of the incoming strike without defending, leading to the "double knockout" scenario you described before.

So what to do. Give me an actual situation with an actual opponent, and I will play with it and see what works. I won't argue it with a stranger online. I would accept suggestions for solutions to experiment with. A person with an open mind can learn from many sources.

BTW do you have an open mind?

 

[LFJ]

Oh Jesus Christ

Any showing a clear WT man/wu in a frontal view so you can examine details you are unable to recognize otherwise?

 

[geezer]

There are many photos of YM. Any of him with a WT guard?

"WT" guard? I've seen many similar versions of man-sau wu-sau, some practiced by the WT group, some by Augustine Fong's group, some by the Yip Chun people and Sam Kwok's group, ...those are some of the people I know from my area. They all do a version of man-sau and wu-sau guarding center. Hand positions and the level of the guard vary a bit. My actual sparring guard varies depending on range and who I'm working against. In escrima I retract my guard and keep my hands closer in. Gunting is a beach on that extended man-sau! And then there are all those hooks.

Honestly, I haven't found a single perfect guard for all situations. Apparently you have. In the meantime I make sure I guard center and when in doubt, punch. Not perfect, but it works most of the time.