Good teaching clip

[Juany118]

@KPM-- Many pages back, when we were discussing the most efficient position for the wu sau, I explained the rationale for the centerline wu-sau, namely that it was best positioned to protect in either direction simply by driving forward (if man sau was displaced). LFJ pointed out weaknesses with this ...which I basically agreed with, but if you are momentarily stuck with fighting with one hand, you are by definition compromised. driving the wu forward into a punch, biu-sau, etc. is about as good an option as any.

Of course there are other effective responses (besides just punching) depending on the angle and force of your opponent's attack. For example, a rebounding indoor pak-sau bouncing forward iinto a fak-sau against a wide-of-center punch, and so on. There are so many possibilities ...that is not really my concern. In fact the biggest hole in the traditional guard with man and wu stuck directly on center is not the straight line attack, but hooks and looping punches that angle in from the outside. LFJ said as much many pages back --but naturally stayed mum regarding a solution. No surprise there.

Anyway, over the years I've experimented with a wider-set guard derived from my FMA experience that puts my hands, or at least my bridges, about half way between center and side to basically split the difference. This way, my hands have about the same distance to travel to cover center as to cover the side. I've found that I can still use this effectively to wedge and deflect straight-on punches by simply driving forward and counterpunching, as well as delivering a pak, etc. when required. And, I'm also in a better position to address a looping or hooking shot from the outside.

I've also been looking closely at some of the stuff Alan Orr's doing. Not unlike some of what my DTE friends do. Any opinions or suggestions?

Your mention of FMA reminded me of one of the first conversations we had where I noted that I feel my FMA has informed my WC. As an example, in addressing the round punch based on experience I don't trust a counter strike. Using footwork and transitioning to a tan and/or bong also raises concerns. Answer (and I find arm placement from the man/wu we use doesn't matter much) a simple cover if it's to the head/face (which is where hook punch usually are aimed.). It also as the advantage, imo at least, of feeding off a natural flinch reflex making it easier to perform under pressure.

The same with my overall approach towards weapons, it forced me to realize you have to "open" things up if you don't want to get cut.

As for Orr I like his over all concept, at least as I perceive it. Correct me if you think I am off on this one but I see him as trying to apply the fundamental physical principles of WC (maintaining structure, centerline theory, disrupting the opponent's structure via said centerline.) Now this idea of his may not be applicable if you are simply doing WC v WC in a formal environment, even while sparing but I think taking this idea into the real world where you may find yourself fighting a grappler, a kicker a brawler who likes round punches, focusing on the principles and not the greater dogma of a lineage is a good idea.

 

[LFJ]

So what to do. Give me an actual situation with an actual opponent, and I will play with it and see what works. I won't argue it with a stranger online.

It's only discussion. A diagram was made for you clearly illustrating the situation and lines of attack.

Maybe set it up with someone in person and "play with it" then.

BTW do you have an open mind?

Yes. That's how I came to my current understanding of VT after doing things that didn't work so well or were flawed. I once thought center had to be occupied too.

 

[LFJ]

"WT" guard? I've seen many similar versions of man-sau wu-sau, some practiced by the WT group, some by Augustine Fong's group, some by the Yip Chun people and Sam Kwok's group, ...those are some of the people I know from my area. They all do a version of man-sau and wu-sau guarding center. Hand positions and the level of the guard vary a bit.

Yeah, more to the point... Any clear frontal photo of YM's guard occupying center in whatever version?

 

[geezer]

Oh Jesus Christ

No, that's Yip Man. Jesus has a beard.

 

[LFJ]

No, that's Yip Man. Jesus has a beard.

And that sequence of photos shows something that apparently you guys aren't recognizing.

 

[guy b]

LFJ said as much many pages back --but naturally stayed mum regarding a solution. No surprise there.

Are you saying that you don't wish to discuss any more?

 

[Marnetmar]

Elaborate.

 

[geezer]

Now this guy is not Jesus either. No beard and not perfect.

http://images4.postadsuk.com/2015/02/02/postadsuk.com-wing-chun-vingtsun-wong-shun-leung-system.JPG

However, if you look at his guard a few interesting things are immediately apparent. For one thing, he's slightly turned or "bladed" toward the lead arm. Another thing, his man-sau appears just a bit open or wide of center as though baiting the opponent to strike to the inside (palm-side) of his man sau. The wu sau is pretty close to center, at least as he is standing in relation to the viewer.

Now that's about all I can hazard and even so wouldn't put much stock in a picture. Pictures ...especially as viewed by people outside of the WSL-VT system are ...just pictures. So, LFJ, please enlighten us!!!

 

[guy b]

Chasing an incoming strike across center with paak-sau, when your lead arm has been removed, only leaves you more vulnerable as the rapid followup strike would cut into your center interrupting you before you'd be able to bounce a faak-sau back out.

That's the problem with chasing hands. It always leaves you in the past.

Excellent point. VT not very good as a reactive system. This is why imposing upon the opponent is so important, it keeps you ahead

 

[guy b]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I'm in no mood to argue matters of faith!

I thought we were talking about the hands on centre guard of WT. Did YM teach that?

 

[Juany118]

Now this guy is not Jesus either. No beard and not perfect.

http://images4.postadsuk.com/2015/02/02/postadsuk.com-wing-chun-vingtsun-wong-shun-leung-system.JPG

However, if you look at his guard a few interesting things are immediately apparent. For one thing, he's slightly turned or "bladed" toward the lead arm. Another thing, his man-sau appears just a bit open or wide of center as though baiting the opponent to strike to the inside (palm-side) of his man sau. The wu sau is pretty close to center, at least as he is standing in relation to the viewer.

Now that's about all I can hazard and even so wouldn't put much stock in a picture. Pictures ...especially as viewed by people outside of the WSL-VT system are ...just pictures. So, LFJ, please enlighten us!!!

Well we see how well it worked out when I compared and contrasted two videos that you can control play back speed on. I suspect history shall repeat itself.

 

[guy b]

Oh Jesus Christ

 

[guy b]

Well we see how well it worked out when I compared and contrasted two videos that you can control play back speed on. I suspect history shall repeat itself.

Please stop whining. Don't like, don't post.

 

[LFJ]

So, LFJ, please enlighten us!!!

Not bad. Try another.

None of YM showing lead and rear from the front that you know of though?
That's more important, since you are saying the guard comes from YM.

 

[geezer]

Not bad. Try another.

None of YM showing lead and rear from the front that you know of though?
That's more important, since you are saying the guard comes from YM.

I'm more interested in what works than in old photos. Or even in whether something was done by GM Yip, WSL, or anybody else.

As my first Escrima instructor, Rene Latosa used to say, "Nobody cares who you learned from, it's what you can do". Unfortunately, too many people do worry too much about names and certificates rather than what you can do, ...and how well you can teach it. One of my current coaches never got a "black belt" in anything, but he has real skill as a fighter and is a very good coach. Many of his students do have very high ranks in various arts.

 

[guy b]

Honestly, I haven't found a single perfect guard for all situations. Apparently you have. In the meantime I make sure I guard center and when in doubt, punch. Not perfect, but it works most of the time.

It isn't about perfect solutions, it is about percentages

 

[guy b]

I'm more interested in what works than in old photos. Or even in whether something was done by GM Yip, WSL, or anybody else.

Ok lets go back to the orignal situation and explore options. What can you change about hands help on centre?

 

[LFJ]

I'm more interested in what works than in old photos. Or even in whether something was done by GM Yip, WSL, or anybody else.

As my first Escrima instructor, Rene Latosa used to say, "Nobody cares who you learned from, it's what you can do". Unfortunately, too many people do worry too much about names and certificates rather than what you can do, ...and how well you can teach it. One of my current coaches never got a "black belt" in anything, but he has real skill as a fighter and is a very good coach. Many of his students do have very high ranks in various arts.

Yeah. That's what I'm trying to get to.

What YM taught works.

What many came away with, having not learned his full system, doesn't, as I've illustrated in this thread. Center guard makes you chase hands as a last resort and get hit.

 

[geezer]

Yeah. That's what I'm trying to get to.

What YM taught works.

What many came away with, having not learned his full system, doesn't, as I've illustrated in this thread. Center guard makes you chase hands as a last resort and get hit.

Seeing as the guard position is a very basic thing taught early on, Yip Man actually taught this directly to many many students. Yet only WSL got it right? Not because he tweaked it and refined it himself, mind you, ....but because only he got what GM Yip was teaching?

Amazing....

And it is that hard to get, so hard that Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu, Tsui Sheung Tin, Ho kam Ming, Hawkins Cheung, and all the others (including William Cheung and Leung Ting, et al.) never got it.

And yet you and Guy have it!

But you won't share the secret with us .

Though you will encourage us to see the error of our ways and look for the truth.

Boy, these emojis are fun.... ....but I digress .

 

[wtxs]

Chasing an incoming strike across center with paak-sau, when your lead arm has been removed, only leaves you more vulnerable as the rapid followup strike would cut into your center interrupting you before you'd be able to bounce a faak-sau back out.

That's the problem with chasing hands. It always leaves you in the past.

In the presented scenario where your lead left is removed, a rear right held wider to the right of center would exacerbate your problem, requiring a longer distance to cross center with a chasing paak-sau.

I agree with you there will be problems in most encounters ... the whole idea of this discussion is to come up with an suitable or better solution.

There can be no resolution when you down play others inputs and has yet to outline how it's done in your lineage.