falseness in training

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Utahblaine, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Ah, so you're referring to those side benefits of training that folks sometimes aren't thinking about. Got it.
     
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  2. isshinryuronin

    isshinryuronin Purple Belt

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    Karate began as a practical fighting system by warriors who proved themselves in their profession and street fights. It was a combat art. Still, the masters taught restraint and respect as well as spiritual harmony. Then, a century ago, karate was watered down as it was being introduced into the Japanese/Okinawan school system.

    After WWII and Korean War the art was brought to the USA and became a commercial venture. The katas were still taught, but minus the true meaning of the moves in many cases. Gone were the joint locks and breaks, the pressure point attacks and grappling. Now there is a resurgence in discovering these moves hidden in the traditional katas.

    There are dojos that teach the true karate tradition - they are just few and far between. Modern karate has many facets so appeals to many for many reasons. Good luck in finding what you're looking for.
     
  3. Utahblaine

    Utahblaine White Belt

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    This is my thought of martial arts as a general activity.
    I'm not sure I agree with that one. The most important part of martial arts as a whole isn't fun. Martial arts came from necessity. It came from war, from survival. It has evolved into a discipline and is most certainly fun to practice. If the # 1 goal is to have fun then there is no discipline which is what the selling point of Americanized martial arts largely is.
    I'm glad that your having fun as you should, I just cant say with my heart that fun is the most important aspect of any martial arts training. Fun doesn't change lives or protect people from bullies, attackers, bad habits, poor health, or any other problems. it may help but is only a side effect of the initial goals.
     
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  4. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    you seem intent on telling others why they should do ma, which seems to be the same issue as at your dojo.

    theres only three reasons why you should do anything, ( leaving aside hygiene issues)1) you have some moral or practical obligation, 2) they pay you and 3) you enjoy it.

    I suppose you could fell a moral obligation to protect yourself/ family, but it's not feudal times you dont need to be battle ready to live a long and fruitful life, if there not paying you to do ma and only a very select few get 5hat privilege, then if it's not for fun, then theres no point and you should do something else with your time that you do enjoy
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2019
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a decent summation of why I don't like to get into the notion of what MA (or much else) "should be" for others. I know what it should be for me, because that's what I want it to be in my life. I figure everyone else gets to make that decision for themselves, too.
     
  6. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

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    My biggest problem with this, which I agree with more of it that you probably think, is why do you or I or anyone else get to make the rules for everyone else?

    Furthermore, the quality or better yet seriousness, of training is on the individual. You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink. I train hard. I laugh at myself quite a bit and have fun at my own expense during and after training. I take what I do seriously, but I don’t take myself seriously. There’s a difference between the two.

    I train alongside people who aren’t there for combative purposes. They go through the motions and have fun with it. Certainly not the end of the world. The older I get the less I’m there for combative purposes, but it’s easily still the heart of what I’m doing there. I haven’t been in a fight for a good 15 years now; should I keep training at an all out ready for war intensity or should I lighten up a bit and enjoy myself. And if someone told me I have to leave because I wasn’t 100% preparing for an all out brawl every training session, I’d laugh and ask them what makes them think they get to determine if I’m allowed to train or not.

    To each his own. I don’t want someone judging me, therefore I don’t judge anyone else. Without this mentality, the world is a very frustrating place. Trust me, I’ve been there. Minding everyone else’s business and trying to impose your ways on them doesn’t get anyone anywhere. The only thing you can control and make the rules for is your own stuff. Take charge of that and leave everyone else to do the same, and everything will be a lot easier.
     
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  7. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    No one can tell me why I train.
    No one can tell how I should train.
    No one can tell what the purpose of my training should be.

    If anyone feels the need to judge me negatively because I fail to meet their personal definition of what martial arts is or should be, feel free. It won't affect me in the least.

    I know why I train.

    I don't know, care, or judge how anyone else trains.

    I block people who irritate me.

    That is all.
     
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  8. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    I agree with the idea of not telling the random stranger what to do in a casual environment. In my work it is not unusual to tell a total stranger how to operate or interface with a machine or system. There are numerous reasons, the least of which being safety. I think it goes a step further when someone has signed up for class. The instructor(s) have a responsibility to "tell the person what to do". What is paramount to me is how they do it. We have all seen the cocky Cobra Kai bad guy instructors (forget his name). I have to smile when I see them. We have a couple at our main school even though that is not at all our GM's personality. Some is a lack of confidence, some of it is just trying really, really hard. For me it is all about intent. I do not like trying to teach people with fear tactics. It is part of what makes teaching SD skills separate from the rest of MA difficult IMHO. Aim small, miss small. Practice with calm and control, react with calm and control.
     
  9. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Well said. To parrot off a response I made to a @gpseymour post, a lot of what the original OP mentioned is fleshed off in a typical class. There are some that are all in and train as hard as possible along side others who don't or cant for different reasons. And some who leave because of incorrect assumptions about class. But the class material is presented the same to everyone. The sign of a good instructor is when they recognize this in different students and push them accordingly. When we line up for drills, everyone is doing the same drill on the same count. Some people can take a little more push than others when doing them. That is where the fun begins.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think there should be a reasonable link between an activity and some sort of progress in that activity.

    Swimming clubs should swim. Cooking schools should cook. Martial artists should learn to fight. If they are not then mabye change the name to better reflect the activity that they are doing.

    I am pretty sure even in these martial arts social clubs you describe you can't just come in and do whatever you want.

    "Hey guys mabye we should train today"

    "Nah don't feel like it I will just sit here and chat instead"
     
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  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So me and my mates could just turn up at your school and do some jujitsu rolling?
     
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  12. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Could you say the same when you first started training? Those sound like statements of maturation in your training. But we all need the "how I should train" reminder from time to time. There is always another gear or level we can find. The triggers are different for everyone. I think I get what you are saying, but why do you think you are immediately being judged when someone gets critical or challenges your training? We all need adversity to build comparators, experience. Don't know if that is what you meant but that is the way it sounds.
     
  13. JR 137

    JR 137 Grandmaster

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    I don’t think he meant what techniques; I’m pretty sure he meant with what intent.
     
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  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't see why a school should restrict or decide for me what training I do.
     
  15. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    If I needed to be told how to train at any point, it would have been from my instructor, not a random Internet acquaintance.

    What I hear in this thread, and it's not new, we see it from time to time, is the so-called truth someone has discovered and the zeal with which they tell everyone else how we're all doing it wrong. It always begins with the (incorrect) assumption that we all want the same thing out of martial arts training, and it usually focuses on something resembling being the biggest baddest tough guy.

    As I said in the beginning, I don't want what others want, that's completely ok, no one can tell me how I should train or what my goals should be, and for what reason should anyone think themselves an authority on what martial arts training is for?
     
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  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'd like to click "agree" twice on this.
     
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  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure I get the point of the last part - of course, within a school, there's an expectation of how people participate. That's true of pretty much all social interaction.

    As for the first part, that's how I feel, but I don't see why my opinion counts more than the folks who disagree on that point. Part of the issue is what we (you and I) decide to include in the term "martial arts" for this discussion. If we say martial arts is the practice of learning to fight, then by definition those things are linked (meaning if they're not learning to fight, they're doing something that doesn't fall within our definition of martial arts). If we say martial arts is any activity roughly related to or derived from combat training, then we end up including things like archery, when trained without any fighting focus (which we could also argue is hunting training, but needn't be that, either). How does it really affect me (or anyone else) if they want to call something "martial arts" that doesn't meet whatever definition I choose to use?
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    A school having expectations is different from me having expectations (from the outside, not as a student) of that school.
     
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  19. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    Precisely.

    First, as you said, who is the arbiter of what I may call what I do?

    Second, if someone were to witness me training, they'd probably think they are seeing me practicing traditional IR karate and wonder what I am on about. But that's because they see what I'm doing, not what I'm experiencing, not what I'm there for. Yes, I wear a gi and do kata and will stomp a mud hole in a few folk, but it isn't why I train, it isn't why I'm there, and I know some folks don't get it.

    I don't tell anyone else what is and is not martial arts. I'm not qualified. Nor is anyone else.
     
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  20. Bill Mattocks

    Bill Mattocks Sr. Grandmaster

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    The dojo where I train teaches Isshinryu karate and Tokushin kobudo.

    To the best of my knowledge, each student practices those arts. What they train for, what their goals are, I don't know. It's not my business. I have my reasons, others have theirs. None are invalid because some rando said so.123
     
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