falseness in training

[JR 137]

I don't see why a school should restrict or decide for me what training I do.

You chose the school, the school didn’t choose you. I don’t go to a Toyota dealership looking to buy a Ferrari, I don’t go to McDonald’s looking to order a porterhouse steak and Guinness, and I don’t go to a Gracie JJ school looking to learn Unsu kata.

Call me crazy. It’s ok, plenty of people have.

 

[drop bear]

You chose the school, the school didn’t choose you. I don’t go to a Toyota dealership looking to buy a Ferrari, I don’t go to McDonald’s looking to order a porterhouse steak and Guinness, and I don’t go to a Gracie JJ school looking to learn Unsu kata.

Call me crazy. It’s ok, plenty of people have.

Which could also be OPs point.

 

[drop bear]

A school having expectations is different from me having expectations (from the outside, not as a student) of that school.

Why?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why?

Because you are joining the school. If you want to learn BJJ, my program (and the school I train at) would be a really bad choice. You can't come to my class and train BJJ, because that's not what we do. You wouldn't expect to go to an accounting class and discuss Shakespearean sonnets, either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Which could also be OPs point.

Except the OP appears to be talking about what the class should be (and, indeed, what ALL classes should be), rather than finding the right class.

 

[jobo]

I think there should be a reasonable link between an activity and some sort of progress in that activity.

Swimming clubs should swim. Cooking schools should cook. Martial artists should learn to fight. If they are not then mabye change the name to better reflect the activity that they are doing.

I am pretty sure even in these martial arts social clubs you describe you can't just come in and do whatever you want.

"Hey guys mabye we should train today"

"Nah don't feel like it I will just sit here and chat instead"

I've seen this line of reasoning used before, and it doesn't stack up, unless you want to dictate to others what they should do and how they should go about it. which the op and seemingly you want to do.

attending a swimming class or a baking class, will give you only basic skills, there no expectation that an adult who decides to learn to swim, will reach competition level, or ever be a strong swimmer capable of fighting strong currents or swimming 10 miles after being ship wrecked. that would be a totally unrealistic exspectation.

traing someone who is already a strong swimmer to be a slightly stronger swimmer that's do able. they probably still wont ever be a competition swimmer, . unless they are in possession of unusual genetics and not over 25, well they could do if they dont mind coming last a lot.

so it is with ma, are they a better fighter for having done a couple of years ? possibly, they will be fitter and more co ordinated which are important elements, can they take on alcommers in a bar fight or a ring? that's probably an unrealistic expectation unless they have u usual genetics and are under 25

 

[punisher73]

If that's so, then what is the point of teaching martial arts as a business at all?

If your student's don't want to learn Martial arts in it's true form, then they shouldn't sign up for it. Also, if a "teacher" feels this way they should coach a sport and not pretend to teach a dicipline.

Martial arts has way more value that can't be quantified by the amount made by selling memberships.
If that's one's main goal, then they're in the wrong busniness. It'seems imoral to me. It's making a joke out of something that could be used to change people lives. It's taking the power away from the activity to impact people.
It gives MA a bad name in the community.


No disrespect intended. It's just something I feel very passionate about.

Therein lies the issue with running martial arts as a business. MOST people don't want to be hardcore fighters and go to work with lumps and bruises. If you run a commercial school, you need lots of students to pay the bills and keep the doors open. There are a couple different ways around this if you really want to teach fighting skills.

1) Don't run a commercial school-use your garage/backyard/pole barn etc. and train a small group of dedicated students that way.
2) If you have a commercial school run to draw in people and money to keep the doors open and have/offer a separate "fighting class" for people who want more. You won't drive off the bulk of your students this way because its too hard, but gives you the resources to keep the doors open and train how you want. Slowly, you can work on more students to see the benefit and start joining the harder fighting class.

As soon as martial arts were taught for money, they have been watered down as public attention wanted them.

 

[dvcochran]

If I needed to be told how to train at any point, it would have been from my instructor, not a random Internet acquaintance.

What I hear in this thread, and it's not new, we see it from time to time, is the so-called truth someone has discovered and the zeal with which they tell everyone else how we're all doing it wrong. It always begins with the (incorrect) assumption that we all want the same thing out of martial arts training, and it usually focuses on something resembling being the biggest baddest tough guy.

As I said in the beginning, I don't want what others want, that's completely ok, no one can tell me how I should train or what my goals should be, and for what reason should anyone think themselves an authority on what martial arts training is for?

Well said. I expected that was where you were going with your post.

 

[JR 137]

Therein lies the issue with running martial arts as a business. MOST people don't want to be hardcore fighters and go to work with lumps and bruises. If you run a commercial school, you need lots of students to pay the bills and keep the doors open. There are a couple different ways around this if you really want to teach fighting skills.

1) Don't run a commercial school-use your garage/backyard/pole barn etc. and train a small group of dedicated students that way.
2) If you have a commercial school run to draw in people and money to keep the doors open and have/offer a separate "fighting class" for people who want more. You won't drive off the bulk of your students this way because its too hard, but gives you the resources to keep the doors open and train how you want. Slowly, you can work on more students to see the benefit and start joining the harder fighting class.

As soon as martial arts were taught for money, they have been watered down as public attention wanted them.

As far as I know the MA was always taught for money. Perhaps not for tuition like today, but there has always been an exchange of goods and/or services in one form or another.

The notion that teachers taught everyone who they felt worthy in their backyards for free is a myth IMO. Some did, but they were most likely the exception and not the norm.

 

[punisher73]

As far as I know the MA was always taught for money. Perhaps not for tuition like today, but there has always been an exchange of goods and/or services in one form or another.

The notion that teachers taught everyone who they felt worthy in their backyards for free is a myth IMO. Some did, but they were most likely the exception and not the norm.

Yes and no. Karate in Okinawa was taught to only very small groups of people at a time and usually involved family or a close family/friend introduction. The instructor would have found it an insult to be paid for the services taught and charging money for their art went against their ideals. Most students DID help out the instructor with goods/services, but it was not asked for and not talked about. It wasn't until after WW2 that Okinawan instructors copied the Japanese model of teaching and got very good contracts with the US government to teach karate that we started to see it being taught for commercial gain.

 

[Yokozuna514]

It's been interesting to see the evolution of this thread and how everyone taken something different and expanded on it. If I remember correctly, the OP was training at a place most of us would call a 'McDojo'. During his time there, he taught and regurgitated much of what he had learned. As time passed and he looked around and started to compare what he had been taught to what was out there, he realized that he had been wasting 'his' time learning an art he 'thought' was 'real' (for lack of a better word). He was young when he started and is still comparatively young to most of us so I can understand his feelings of 'having had the wool pulled over his eyes'. It seemed to me that he felt that he was burned by the experience and was looking for some commiseration for not only being the only one having to experience this.

I really don't think he was trying to tell anyone what the 'one' real art is or that people that do not train in a 'realistic' manner are wasting their time. If he did, I expect it would be because he is still smarting over the whole thing. Perhaps it wasn't apparent but it seems that way to me. I hope the OP finds a school that is better suited to what he feels would be a better use of his time.

On a side note, I ran into a friend of mine that I used to train with at my Kyokushin dojo. He had stopped going after he reached his Shodan and decided to seek a different path. He tried a local MMA school but found it to be horrible experience (kind of like a McMMA gym) and has since moved on to a local BJJ place in the area. He enjoys it and feels as if it is at least as good as a work out that he had at our dojo but the caveat was (and is) that he was careful to choose partners that were 'controlled' with their techniques. It doesn't take much to pop a joint and we aren't getting any younger. I did mention that we were looking for some sparring partners for special training sessions so perhaps he will join us but the point of this story is that one size does not typically fit all and that everyone brings their own experiences to the table. Do what makes you happy as so many of you said before and if people realize after time that a place is no longer making them happy for some reason, it should be ok to let a little steam off to a bunch of internet randos. No harm, no foul.

 

[drop bear]

Because you are joining the school. If you want to learn BJJ, my program (and the school I train at) would be a really bad choice. You can't come to my class and train BJJ, because that's not what we do. You wouldn't expect to go to an accounting class and discuss Shakespearean sonnets, either.

But if I go to a class and everyone is being crap because that is the generally accepted standard.

It is the same thing.

It makes the process dysfunctional for those who do want to achieve the thing they came there to do.

And I think a person can cast a reasonable judgment if a class is obviously failing at achieving what they are setting out to do.

 

[drop bear]

I've seen this line of reasoning used before, and it doesn't stack up, unless you want to dictate to others what they should do and how they should go about it. which the op and seemingly you want to do.

attending a swimming class or a baking class, will give you only basic skills, there no expectation that an adult who decides to learn to swim, will reach competition level, or ever be a strong swimmer capable of fighting strong currents or swimming 10 miles after being ship wrecked. that would be a totally unrealistic exspectation.

traing someone who is already a strong swimmer to be a slightly stronger swimmer that's do able. they probably still wont ever be a competition swimmer, . unless they are in possession of unusual genetics and not over 25, well they could do if they dont mind coming last a lot.

so it is with ma, are they a better fighter for having done a couple of years ? possibly, they will be fitter and more co ordinated which are important elements, can they take on alcommers in a bar fight or a ring? that's probably an unrealistic expectation unless they have u usual genetics and are under 25

Except they are not even bothered to try. If a martial arts quite simply fails in its objective it was probably genetics.

I am not sure someone can defend that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But if I go to a class and everyone is being crap because that is the generally accepted standard.

It is the same thing.

It makes the process dysfunctional for those who do want to achieve the thing they came there to do.

And I think a person can cast a reasonable judgment if a class is obviously failing at achieving what they are setting out to do.

No, it's really not the same thing. If you go to a class at a school where people train lightly and without vigor, that's the kind of school it is. And that's what those folks are probably there for. If that's not what you're looking for, you go to another school where folks train the way you want.

 

[jobo]

Except they are not even bothered to try. If a martial arts quite simply fails in its objective it was probably genetics.

I am not sure someone can defend that.

that's not really the point I was making, but yes to some extent, if genetics and age are not on your side a ma will always fail at the objective of being a competative fighter, just as a soccer or even a snooker training programme will fail for the same reasons. that's of course with the rather big assumption that that was the objective of either the club or the I individual

 

[Gerry Seymour]

that's not really the point I was making, but yes to some extent, if genetics and age are not on your side a ma will always fail at the objective of being a competative fighter, just as a soccer or even a snooker training programme will fail for the same reasons. that's of course with the rather big assumption that that was the objective of either the club or the I individual

Assuming you're talking about being competitive at higher levels (which I think you actually said earlier) I'd mostly agree. There are some outliers (Muggsy Bogues, who competed in the NBA at 5'3") who might give counter-evidence, but their scarcity is support for the point. There's a limit to how much we can change our bodies, after a certain point in our lives. Some of the scientific research into late-life (after 50) muscular development/recovery seems to support this.

 

[jobo]

Assuming you're talking about being competitive at higher levels (which I think you actually said earlier) I'd mostly agree. There are some outliers (Muggsy Bogues, who competed in the NBA at 5'3") who might give counter-evidence, but their scarcity is support for the point. There's a limit to how much we can change our bodies, after a certain point in our lives. Some of the scientific research into late-life (after 50) muscular development/recovery seems to support this.

well all competition has a min standard to be competitive and if it's open age group most 40 plus will struggle against 25 to in athelic ability. I represented England at 8 ball pool, in the over 50s, which I'm proud of, but on the other hand I was only playing other old blokes with bad backs and failing eye sight. I didn't stand an earthly chance of making the open age group team. that's that's not really athletic. playing 18 yo at 5 aside, now that's athlete and they run round me like I'm a tree!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well all competition has a min standard to be competitive and if it's open age group most 40 plus will struggle against 25 to in athelic ability. I represented England at 8 ball pool, in the over 50s, which I'm proud of, but on the other hand I was only playing other old blokes with bad backs and failing eye sight. I didn't stand an earthly chance of making the open age group team. that's that's not really athletic. playing 18 yo at 5 aside, now that's athlete and they run round me like I'm a tree!

Agreed. I guess my point was just that if we talk about being competitive in regards to genetics, that's not as much a factor at lower levels. I'm not particularly gifted genetically (witness my crappy knees, mild asthma, etc.), but I was pretty competitive when I played soccer. I'd probably have done okay at lower college levels, but I'd never have made pro.

 

[JR 137]

Are we discussing MA competition or actual fighting here? I’m confused.

 

[Leviathan]

Hey there. I am a martial artist of 12 + years in my 20's with almost 9 of years being some degree of teaching.

I have recently retired from teaching as I have decided to move on and enter into new fields. Being a new dad is one of them.

I'm seeking a new take on things that have been weighing very heavy on my mind. let me begin.

The last two years were very tough for me even though some good things were happening. I tested and received my Third Degree Black in our system and 6 months later was given the official title of Sensei As well. This Title in my Dojo held only for long term teachers who have proven themselves worthy of high regard among our circle schools.

This time was hard however, because I was really beginning to question my abilities and the methods that were used to build them.


We practice a known type of american karate with the addition of a number of different disciplines. It is it's own mixed "style".

We focus hard on memorizing long, scripted, and often very complicated "self-Defense" Techniques, and many forms or Kata. I became a top performer in what I now call Regurgitating. I feel as though I don't have what I would call Ad lib skills or real time Sparing/combat skills. This was an area rarely discussed or practiced. When this topic was touched on or we would "train" it, we would do about three or four rounds lasting about 30 seconds at best. Enough time for one punch or kick to be thrown.

Me being a younger man, I liked to push my self and others too. When I could I would have my students spar safely but effort and focus as well. I felt that The ability to experience being tired and/ adrenaline while making decisions and movements was important.

As time passed while teaching there and the standards for what it took for our students to pass their "tests" lowered or my opinion and knowledge of the subject grew, I became more and more disconnected and even disgusted with my school and myself. The amount of students that "earned their Black Belts without having any actual ability or ever having shown any real effort in any areas was killing me. I began to see this falseness even more in my self.

I was good at coming up with ideas for drills, for workouts, for marketing, for all kinds of things. I liked to problem solve and come up with solutions. Realism is something that for me, is a must have. That's why I could see certain problems. I tried hard not to shy away from the truth no matter how hard, or disappointing it was. I'ts what helped me be a good teacher.

This is where problems grew. I started asking tough questions related to training and our school philosophy. Questions like what if this happens or what if my attacker doesn't react like the techniques says he will? What about adrenaline? what about mental and physical toughness? what about reaction time or what about Cadio and breathing. I was told That I was just to young and naive.

When the subject of kata was brought to my teachers my attention. I asked the mother of all questions. Why? What is the point? I was given a few shallow and cookie cutter answers like, kata is meant to help you practice without a partner, to train your memory, to improve fluidity of motion, to visualize the techniques. I personally know more ways that kata can be beneficial but neither these answered or my own were ever given out. I had to dig and interview my teacher to get them. I would ask my this question once. " Could it be said that the time spent practicing Kata and other things be better spent training something else?" My answer was yes!!!! There are so many ways to do all that was said about kata and mre with different methods.When I stated how I felt, I was told that I just didn't understand the system.

The long thought out and trial and error based conclusion is that we were practicing not for Self-Defense like we advertised, or for the betterment of the students and not to be the "best of the best" like our school chant said but, to preserve the traditions of old and to sell memberships. We did things the same without innovation or consideration of changing times. The world is changing and we were literally training by the same scripts from a select few figure heads from the recent past. Having said this to my direct teacher who I love and respect, I was told " sometimes we have to practice what (Anounamous) said because obviously he knew better then we do, so we have to practice blindly without knowing why". That statement hit me harder then any and the effect it had on me still lasts. It is by definition the meaning of the word cult.

I was later informed how my perception was that Martial Arts is all about "violence" and that my movies for training were wrong. I don't think this at all. There are far too many good things that MA teaches and I do not over look them. Respect, perseverance, humility, confidence, health Etc.. are all framed exampled in my school. They just were never used to their full potential or at really. Heightening ability and overcoming challenges is what I would argue is what creates confidence in students and with the encouragement of a leader or teacher, the effect can be ten fold more. Violence however is a factor. It's real it's push upon us all the time. I feel that a student should know that and be able to handle it or you cant say that you teach "self-Defense" or combat. Understanding of the nature of violence is impalpable for a "Black Belt".

To me failure can be the biggest teacher and motivator if used correctly by a gracious but real teacher. Failure wast an option as I was reminded at every fake test. It wast not do to us not excepting failure but the opposite. Failure meant that a student was more like to quit and stop paying. This meant that no matter how lazy, n focused, disrespectful or unknowlegible of the material a student was, we were to find a way to pass them. I could not do it any more.

I even wrote to the owner and master instructor of the school and told him in detail and with with respectful words how I was feeling and asked for something to ease my mind. I didn't receive it. Instead I heard excuses for why we do things the way we do. Nothing got better, but my disappointment hit a new level.

I still love martial arts but I cant hold back my anger to my personal experience with it. Don't get me wrong, there was also a great deal of good things I and many gained from their time there. The leaders just seam to refuse the to evolve, to innovate, change.

I may be young but I have been told that I am an old soul, I love history, I love philosophy, but I also love the realness and rawness of what exists in martial arts. I earn for change and innovation in myself and my training.

The last question I'll mention is one I ask my self. Would this school be one that you would take your doughtier to? My answer would have to be no. My personal View what the best school type for training is one where we hold certain valuers and respect of a tradition dojo with the realism and tested methods of a Combat Gym. They are neither.

I feel as though I am mostly fake as a teacher and as a artist myself. I feel that I should wash my hands and move on to better things.

What do your think? Please give me your respectful opinions. Any info would be appreciated.

Hi Utahblaine,

I can relate sooo much to what you say. I experienced something similar as I trained karate shotokan for 3.5 years and got more and more frustrated. I talked to some trainers, questioned the whole stuff but it was a lost cause so I quit.

I have experienced that falseness too and mentioned that in a thread (debating why students quit martial arts; 3rd post on the page linked below). I also listed several things I consider wrong, katas being one of them...

New Student: when will you quit?

Some practitioners of MA are unwilling or unable to look at facts and question what they have been doing maybe for decades: They are simply locked in tradition and what some old masters said decades ago or what has become a tradition is more important than everything else. They have submitted to the system, climbed their way up and enjoy the merits of that system (money, prestige of beeing -called- a master, having a black belt...). When you question that system you are shaking the throne they're sitting on, which can make it very difficult to them to understand or even accept your point, no matter how valid it is.

When Galileo claimed that the earth was revolving around the sun and not the opposite, evidence didn't matter to the church. They just went by some old writings and couldn't or wouldn't even consider facts. Sounds familiar?

It all cleared up when I switched to Muay Thai. That's something I can definitely advise you.

By the way: congratulation on beeing a father and beeing so open minded.