falseness in training

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Utahblaine, Feb 24, 2019.

  1. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    You chose the school, the school didn’t choose you. I don’t go to a Toyota dealership looking to buy a Ferrari, I don’t go to McDonald’s looking to order a porterhouse steak and Guinness, and I don’t go to a Gracie JJ school looking to learn Unsu kata.

    Call me crazy. It’s ok, plenty of people have.
     
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  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Which could also be OPs point.
     
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Why?
     
  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Because you are joining the school. If you want to learn BJJ, my program (and the school I train at) would be a really bad choice. You can't come to my class and train BJJ, because that's not what we do. You wouldn't expect to go to an accounting class and discuss Shakespearean sonnets, either.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Except the OP appears to be talking about what the class should be (and, indeed, what ALL classes should be), rather than finding the right class.
     
  6. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    I've seen this line of reasoning used before, and it doesn't stack up, unless you want to dictate to others what they should do and how they should go about it. which the op and seemingly you want to do.

    attending a swimming class or a baking class, will give you only basic skills, there no expectation that an adult who decides to learn to swim, will reach competition level, or ever be a strong swimmer capable of fighting strong currents or swimming 10 miles after being ship wrecked. that would be a totally unrealistic exspectation.

    traing someone who is already a strong swimmer to be a slightly stronger swimmer that's do able. they probably still wont ever be a competition swimmer, . unless they are in possession of unusual genetics and not over 25, well they could do if they dont mind coming last a lot.

    so it is with ma, are they a better fighter for having done a couple of years ? possibly, they will be fitter and more co ordinated which are important elements, can they take on alcommers in a bar fight or a ring? that's probably an unrealistic expectation unless they have u usual genetics and are under 25
     
  7. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Therein lies the issue with running martial arts as a business. MOST people don't want to be hardcore fighters and go to work with lumps and bruises. If you run a commercial school, you need lots of students to pay the bills and keep the doors open. There are a couple different ways around this if you really want to teach fighting skills.

    1) Don't run a commercial school-use your garage/backyard/pole barn etc. and train a small group of dedicated students that way.
    2) If you have a commercial school run to draw in people and money to keep the doors open and have/offer a separate "fighting class" for people who want more. You won't drive off the bulk of your students this way because its too hard, but gives you the resources to keep the doors open and train how you want. Slowly, you can work on more students to see the benefit and start joining the harder fighting class.

    As soon as martial arts were taught for money, they have been watered down as public attention wanted them.
     
  8. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Well said. I expected that was where you were going with your post.
     
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  9. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    As far as I know the MA was always taught for money. Perhaps not for tuition like today, but there has always been an exchange of goods and/or services in one form or another.

    The notion that teachers taught everyone who they felt worthy in their backyards for free is a myth IMO. Some did, but they were most likely the exception and not the norm.
     
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  10. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Yes and no. Karate in Okinawa was taught to only very small groups of people at a time and usually involved family or a close family/friend introduction. The instructor would have found it an insult to be paid for the services taught and charging money for their art went against their ideals. Most students DID help out the instructor with goods/services, but it was not asked for and not talked about. It wasn't until after WW2 that Okinawan instructors copied the Japanese model of teaching and got very good contracts with the US government to teach karate that we started to see it being taught for commercial gain.
     
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  11. Yokozuna514

    Yokozuna514 Purple Belt

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    It's been interesting to see the evolution of this thread and how everyone taken something different and expanded on it. If I remember correctly, the OP was training at a place most of us would call a 'McDojo'. During his time there, he taught and regurgitated much of what he had learned. As time passed and he looked around and started to compare what he had been taught to what was out there, he realized that he had been wasting 'his' time learning an art he 'thought' was 'real' (for lack of a better word). He was young when he started and is still comparatively young to most of us so I can understand his feelings of 'having had the wool pulled over his eyes'. It seemed to me that he felt that he was burned by the experience and was looking for some commiseration for not only being the only one having to experience this.

    I really don't think he was trying to tell anyone what the 'one' real art is or that people that do not train in a 'realistic' manner are wasting their time. If he did, I expect it would be because he is still smarting over the whole thing. Perhaps it wasn't apparent but it seems that way to me. I hope the OP finds a school that is better suited to what he feels would be a better use of his time.

    On a side note, I ran into a friend of mine that I used to train with at my Kyokushin dojo. He had stopped going after he reached his Shodan and decided to seek a different path. He tried a local MMA school but found it to be horrible experience (kind of like a McMMA gym) and has since moved on to a local BJJ place in the area. He enjoys it and feels as if it is at least as good as a work out that he had at our dojo but the caveat was (and is) that he was careful to choose partners that were 'controlled' with their techniques. It doesn't take much to pop a joint and we aren't getting any younger. I did mention that we were looking for some sparring partners for special training sessions so perhaps he will join us but the point of this story is that one size does not typically fit all and that everyone brings their own experiences to the table. Do what makes you happy as so many of you said before and if people realize after time that a place is no longer making them happy for some reason, it should be ok to let a little steam off to a bunch of internet randos. No harm, no foul.
     
  12. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    But if I go to a class and everyone is being crap because that is the generally accepted standard.

    It is the same thing.

    It makes the process dysfunctional for those who do want to achieve the thing they came there to do.

    And I think a person can cast a reasonable judgment if a class is obviously failing at achieving what they are setting out to do.
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Except they are not even bothered to try. If a martial arts quite simply fails in its objective it was probably genetics.

    I am not sure someone can defend that.
     
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  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    No, it's really not the same thing. If you go to a class at a school where people train lightly and without vigor, that's the kind of school it is. And that's what those folks are probably there for. If that's not what you're looking for, you go to another school where folks train the way you want.
     
  15. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    that's not really the point I was making, but yes to some extent, if genetics and age are not on your side a ma will always fail at the objective of being a competative fighter, just as a soccer or even a snooker training programme will fail for the same reasons. that's of course with the rather big assumption that that was the objective of either the club or the I individual
     
  16. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Assuming you're talking about being competitive at higher levels (which I think you actually said earlier) I'd mostly agree. There are some outliers (Muggsy Bogues, who competed in the NBA at 5'3") who might give counter-evidence, but their scarcity is support for the point. There's a limit to how much we can change our bodies, after a certain point in our lives. Some of the scientific research into late-life (after 50) muscular development/recovery seems to support this.
     
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well all competition has a min standard to be competitive and if it's open age group most 40 plus will struggle against 25 to in athelic ability. I represented England at 8 ball pool, in the over 50s, which I'm proud of, but on the other hand I was only playing other old blokes with bad backs and failing eye sight. I didn't stand an earthly chance of making the open age group team. that's that's not really athletic. playing 18 yo at 5 aside, now that's athlete and they run round me like I'm a tree!
     
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  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed. I guess my point was just that if we talk about being competitive in regards to genetics, that's not as much a factor at lower levels. I'm not particularly gifted genetically (witness my crappy knees, mild asthma, etc.), but I was pretty competitive when I played soccer. I'd probably have done okay at lower college levels, but I'd never have made pro.
     
  19. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    Are we discussing MA competition or actual fighting here? I’m confused.
     
  20. Leviathan

    Leviathan Yellow Belt

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    Hi Utahblaine,

    I can relate sooo much to what you say. I experienced something similar as I trained karate shotokan for 3.5 years and got more and more frustrated. I talked to some trainers, questioned the whole stuff but it was a lost cause so I quit.

    I have experienced that falseness too and mentioned that in a thread (debating why students quit martial arts; 3rd post on the page linked below). I also listed several things I consider wrong, katas being one of them...

    New Student: when will you quit?

    Some practitioners of MA are unwilling or unable to look at facts and question what they have been doing maybe for decades: They are simply locked in tradition and what some old masters said decades ago or what has become a tradition is more important than everything else. They have submitted to the system, climbed their way up and enjoy the merits of that system (money, prestige of beeing -called- a master, having a black belt...). When you question that system you are shaking the throne they're sitting on, which can make it very difficult to them to understand or even accept your point, no matter how valid it is.

    When Galileo claimed that the earth was revolving around the sun and not the opposite, evidence didn't matter to the church. They just went by some old writings and couldn't or wouldn't even consider facts. Sounds familiar?

    It all cleared up when I switched to Muay Thai. That's something I can definitely advise you.

    By the way: congratulation on beeing a father and beeing so open minded.
     
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