"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

Buka said:
Don'tcha just love it when somebody who has never fished tells you how to fish?
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Exactly. Nobody is saying there is never room for improvement but that's true for every style or system. But to say 1,000,000 cops on the streets locking up and arresting millions of people a year many of which resist much harder then the OP isnt good enough "quality control" because it didnt happen on a mat in a GI or because he cant watch it on YouTube is ridiculous.
 
ballen0351 said:
You have been an law Enfocrment DT instructor in the US for 20 years....hmmmm interesting
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Gotcha. Sorry. Not a DT instructor in the US.

If you have to be one to make an assessment That is the problem pretty much.
 
ballen0351 said:
Exactly. Nobody is saying there is never room for improvement but that's true for every style or system. But to say 1,000,000 cops on the streets locking up and arresting millions of people a year many of which resist much harder then the OP isnt good enough "quality control" because it didnt happen on a mat in a GI or because he cant watch it on YouTube is ridiculous.
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More cops are speaking out and turning away from DT as it stands now. And as more cops are successful with systems that work. You will hopefully get a bigger participation rate.

Look I feel sorry for the DT instructors left behind. I genuinely believe they believe they are helping.

But when a persons head is on the line I advise people look for a system that has more going for it than. "I have used it on the streets. Trust me"
 
drop bear said:
More cops are speaking out and turning away from DT as it stands now. And as more cops are successful with systems that work. You will hopefully get a bigger participation rate.

Look I feel sorry for the DT instructors left behind. I genuinely believe they believe they are helping.

But when a persons head is on the line I advise people look for a system that has more going for it than. "I have used it on the streets. Trust me"
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Not really accurate.

DT is always evolving. As things change our tactics change to fix new problems...sure we tend to be a step behind sometimes but thats just the nature of the beast.

I would advise a "system" that is using feedback from the real world
 
drop bear said:
More cops are speaking out and turning away from DT as it stands now. And as more cops are successful with systems that work. You will hopefully get a bigger participation rate.

Look I feel sorry for the DT instructors left behind. I genuinely believe they believe they are helping.

But when a persons head is on the line I advise people look for a system that has more going for it than. "I have used it on the streets. Trust me"
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Think you’re confounding some issues, DB. If someone studied BJJ for the same amount of time most LEO spend in DT, they’d not get better results. In fact, given the less focused nature (no specific cuffing practice), they’d likely do worse.

The generalizable issue with DT is simple the limited exposure. You can’t reasonably compare longer-term training (BJJ or anything else) to very short-term DT training.
 
drop bear said:
Gotcha. Sorry. Not a DT instructor in the US.

If you have to be one to make an assessment That is the problem pretty much.
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No but you should at least know what's being taught before you make blanket statements about what they do and dont do.
 
drop bear said:
More cops are speaking out and turning away from DT as it stands now. And as more cops are successful with systems that work. You will hopefully get a bigger participation rate.

Look I feel sorry for the DT instructors left behind. I genuinely believe they believe they are helping.

But when a persons head is on the line I advise people look for a system that has more going for it than. "I have used it on the streets. Trust me"
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So now your speaking for "more cops" funny.
You are in over your head now and have no idea what your saying.
 
Hanzou said:
While I largely agree, I think the cops are trying to avoid getting in trouble later on. Like if you can restrain someone without hurting them, that goes a long way to avoiding trouble from lawsuits and other crap. Striking can be a slippery slope depending on the situation.
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Well, frankly, if you can restrain someone without hurting them (or yourself), that would always be the preferred way. Problem is, it seldom goes that way..
 
Doesn’t BJJ tho teach you how to control someone effectively once on the ground? Or wrestling?

Problem I see with a lot of Krav is things don’t go like their drills say they will. So practicing an art like BJJ/Wrestling teaches you how to control yourself and opponent.
 
ballen0351 said:
No but you should at least know what's being taught before you make blanket statements about what they do and dont do.
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It is a secret system only instructors understand. (Linage)

Designed for an environment that nobody else can understand. (Street, sport)

That is effective because someone cool does it. (Appeal to authority)

Created by instructors with no accountability. And trained by students to no standard.

It is basically the worst sort of TMA.

So fine. I will treat this the same way I would treat a ninja.

There is no evidence supporting it effectiveness.

And if you actually are going to need a martial art it absolutely has to be evidence based.
 
drop bear said:
It is a secret system only instructors understand. (Linage)
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It's not a secret system. Its just bad tactics to post a defensive Tactics program so the bad guys and worse Lawyers can study and then use against you on the street or on the court room. Thats common sense.
Designed for an environment that nobody else can understand. (Street, sport)
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I dont think I said that anywhere.
That is effective because someone cool does it. (Appeal to authority)
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Nope I said 1 Million officers in the U.S and it works a vast majority of the time. 1 million vs "someone cool"
Created by instructors with no accountability. And trained by students to no standard.
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Again how do you know? you dont train in it and are not a cop. Again 1 million cops use it every day so there is plenty of Accountability no matter how hard you try and deny it
It is basically the worst sort of TMA.

So fine. I will treat this the same way I would treat a ninja.

There is no evidence supporting it effectiveness.

And if you actually are going to need a martial art it absolutely has to be evidence based.
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Yawn another thread that devolved into well if it's not on YouTube it doesnt work. Believe what you want man your opinion is irrelevant to U.S. Law Enforcement defensive Tactics.
 
gpseymour said:
Think you’re confounding some issues, DB. If someone studied BJJ for the same amount of time most LEO spend in DT, they’d not get better results. In fact, given the less focused nature (no specific cuffing practice), they’d likely do worse.

The generalizable issue with DT is simple the limited exposure. You can’t reasonably compare longer-term training (BJJ or anything else) to very short-term DT training.
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And untested systems, unknown ability of the instructors, A mountain of political compromise, Isolationism. Niche building.

It is all the TMA issues plus, because the students don't even really get a choice.

And it craps on people not only can it not work. Which is hard in a fight.

But if it doesn't work. It is still assumed to work. So that all those unreal expectations that you get out of TMA. Are the official expectations of what will happen in a fight.

Which is why the old school guys hit people and the new school guys jits.
 
ballen0351 said:
It's not a secret system. Its just bad tactics to post a defensive Tactics program so the bad guys and worse Lawyers can study and then use against you on the street or on the court room. Thats common sense.

I dont think I said that anywhere.

Nope I said 1 Million officers in the U.S and it works a vast majority of the time. 1 million vs "someone cool"

Again how do you know? you dont train in it and are not a cop. Again 1 million cops use it every day so there is plenty of Accountability no matter how hard you try and deny it

Yawn another thread that devolved into well if it's not on YouTube it doesnt work. Believe what you want man your opinion is irrelevant to U.S. Law Enforcement defensive Tactics.
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If it doesn't have evidence anywhere then it is an unsupported system.

A million cops using it is terrible evidence.
 
drop bear said:
If it doesn't have evidence anywhere then it is an unsupported system.
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Except it does have "evidence" I've ready use of force reports. I've been on the use of force review board. Just because you dont see it doesnt make it so
 
Not to mention the fact its not a "system" every department uses what they choose to use. I know one department that solely teaches BJJ to its officers, Our department uses a system developed by the state Police. They review every instance of use of force every year and evaluate the training based on real world results then adjust to meet the needs.
I know other departments that teach a little boxing and a little grappling.
I know some departments that dont teach anything.
So I'm not even sure what "system" your trying to bash here?
 
CB Jones said:
Not really accurate.

DT is always evolving. As things change our tactics change to fix new problems...sure we tend to be a step behind sometimes but thats just the nature of the beast.

I would advise a "system" that is using feedback from the real world
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It is the nature of all TMA beasts that are isolationist and governed by its founders rather than its community to be behind.

The pros of bjj become.

Better instructors,
Better general skill level,
More accountable training.
More training. Bigger depth, more people.

The cons being the game is different.

But to change the game is 10% of the problem. Same with any other system.

This is exactly the same conversation I have with self defense.
 
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