"Every cop should learn BJj" Do you agree?

[CB Jones]

There are programs out there where the feds loan PDs weapons. There are a few small PDs where I live that are on that program. They get the guns (Glocks and M16s) and once a year they must send the feds an invoice with pictures of each gun and its serial number to prove they still have it. I've never worked for a dept on that program so I dont know all the details but a friend of mines does and he was telling me about it.

One year they issued us Govt surplus M16s.....pretty sure they were Vietnam era, lol. Luckily a year later the department issued us new Bushmaster ARs.

 

[JR 137]

Depends on the PD. Some have very specific guidelines, some have less to none.

It's actually very common.

In general, the Feds have little, and should have little IMO, say in how State and Local PD's run their biz. Outside of some things which it seems that most people generally think they want the feds to meddle in, such as anti-corruption, it just doesn't seem wise to me to have some fed setting standards. OTOH, it is a long standing tradition for the feds to give grants for equipment & training and offer free/reduced price military equipment. The whole "militarization of the police" thing when they get armored vehicles, surplus M4's, &tc.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I was thinking Fed money, not standards in what they do.

Then again, with Fed money comes Fed strings. Some people in charge have fewer strings, others have so many that everyone involved regrets taking a dime of the money and in retrospect was so much better off before they took it. Been there, seen that a few times in education.

 

[jks9199]

Perhaps a stupid question to all the LEOs and anyone else in the know...

If you have to provide your own firearm, can you choose what you carry, are you given a list of a few you must use, or do you have to buy something specific?

What about ammo? Buy that too?

It wouldn’t be surprising for police buy their own firearm in a 3rd world country. Here in the US? Outrageous IMO. Shouldn’t they petition Trump? He’s claimed many times to take care of the military and veterans.

Edit - this is NOT political. I’m neither bashing nor praising the president. I’d say shouldn’t they petition WHOEVER is sitting in the Oval Office. I’d have said Clinton if she was president.

Most PDs in the US are under 20 people; I'd have to double check to be sure, but I believe most are actually under 10. Many still do not provide much of the uniforms and gear required, and that can include the guns. Generally, if they don't pay for it, many will require the officer to choose from a list of approved firearms and calibers. Some don't care... buy what you want, qualify with it, and you're good to go.

 

[Buka]

I used to belong to an organizaion that had Uzi carbines. When they changed to M-14s they melted the Uzis instead of giving them to a department that might want them. They said it was a liability issue.
I disagreed, I told them it was an asshat issue.

 

[JR 137]

I used to belong to an organizaion that had Uzi carbines. When they changed to M-14s they melted the Uzis instead of giving them to a department that might want them. They said it was a liability issue.
I disagreed, I told them it was an asshat issue.

These lawyers and the people who want to sue for absurd things are out of control.

Try giving infant and toddler toys to a goodwill/thrift store. They won’t take anything due to liability. Even stuff still sealed in the original box. I guess it’s better to throw it away than try to do the right thing by trying to get it to someone who can actually use it. If baby toys are a liability, weapons and the like have zero chance.

 

[jks9199]

Going back to the original question...

Should cops learn BJJ?

Nope.

Nor should they learn Taekwondo, Bando, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Karate, Aikido, Krav Maga, or any other specific martial art.

Police Control Tactics or Defensive Tactics are designed around their job and their mission. They balance training time, and liability with use of force laws, officer safety, and the likelihood of controlling a subject without injuring them. They tend to be selected and pulled from various martial arts, with different styles coming in vogue at various times, and depending on the interests of various lead instructors. In the best programs, they have a unifying set of principles that are consistent throughout. In some others... they aren't.

At various times, programs like Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT), KMWW Force Protection Program (and other Krav based models), Gracie Combatives (and programs from BJJ splits), and other stuff that I can't think of get popular. Very few are really designed specifically for LE needs -- though KMWW and PPCT are. The advantages of packaged programs are documentable curriculums, instructor certification qualifications, and "name recognition" when presented to the brass. But they may not meet a specific agency's needs. For example, there's a guy in Alaska named Steve Jimerfield who -- based on his professional experience as a trooper there, as well as high ranking black belts -- designed a program that takes into account the layers of clothing worn by officers and everyone else up there...

With all that said...

There's no reason why a cop shouldn't train in BJJ, Filipino Martial Arts, Bando, Krav Maga, Judo, Karate, Aikido, Tai Chi, Bagua, or any other martial art. Trained with an eye towards function, and used within the use of force models, any of them are beneficial.

I will note that, increasingly, there are BJJ schools that are highly sport oriented. Also, getting someone in a submission hold is fine -- but you have to be able to cuff them, and that takes an appropriate emphasis in your training.

And I do respect a couple of things I've seen some of the Gracies do teaching their program. When cops called them on a technique, saying that you can't move that way with a gun belt on -- they tried it, and then adjusted to work. And they've actually tested grabbing the slide in a gun disarm... which I admit, I haven't!

 

[drop bear]

Going back to the original question...

Should cops learn BJJ?

Nope.

Nor should they learn Taekwondo, Bando, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Karate, Aikido, Krav Maga, or any other specific martial art.

Police Control Tactics or Defensive Tactics are designed around their job and their mission. They balance training time, and liability with use of force laws, officer safety, and the likelihood of controlling a subject without injuring them. They tend to be selected and pulled from various martial arts, with different styles coming in vogue at various times, and depending on the interests of various lead instructors. In the best programs, they have a unifying set of principles that are consistent throughout. In some others... they aren't.

At various times, programs like Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT), KMWW Force Protection Program (and other Krav based models), Gracie Combatives (and programs from BJJ splits), and other stuff that I can't think of get popular. Very few are really designed specifically for LE needs -- though KMWW and PPCT are. The advantages of packaged programs are documentable curriculums, instructor certification qualifications, and "name recognition" when presented to the brass. But they may not meet a specific agency's needs. For example, there's a guy in Alaska named Steve Jimerfield who -- based on his professional experience as a trooper there, as well as high ranking black belts -- designed a program that takes into account the layers of clothing worn by officers and everyone else up there...

With all that said...

There's no reason why a cop shouldn't train in BJJ, Filipino Martial Arts, Bando, Krav Maga, Judo, Karate, Aikido, Tai Chi, Bagua, or any other martial art. Trained with an eye towards function, and used within the use of force models, any of them are beneficial.

I will note that, increasingly, there are BJJ schools that are highly sport oriented. Also, getting someone in a submission hold is fine -- but you have to be able to cuff them, and that takes an appropriate emphasis in your training.

And I do respect a couple of things I've seen some of the Gracies do teaching their program. When cops called them on a technique, saying that you can't move that way with a gun belt on -- they tried it, and then adjusted to work. And they've actually tested grabbing the slide in a gun disarm... which I admit, I haven't!

My issue with defensive tactics is they don't have accountability. Nobody is held accountable if their methods straight up don't work.

Where as I could turn up to trillo and call out their black belt and challenge him to handcuff me.

 

[ballen0351]

My issue with defensive tactics is they don't have accountability. Nobody is held accountable if their methods straight up don't work.

No accountability by who's standards? Most of these systems are made by cops for cops and are based off real life needs and uses. they are constantly reviewed and updated as well.

Where as I could turn up to trillo and call out their black belt and challenge him to handcuff me.

You could do the same thing to a police DT instructor if you wanted too. or even better go join the academy

 

[drop bear]

No accountability by who's standards? Most of these systems are made by cops for cops and are based off real life needs and uses. they are constantly reviewed and updated as well.


You could do the same thing to a police DT instructor if you wanted too. or even better go join the academy

No accountability by anyone's standards.

Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.

 

[CB Jones]

Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.

Our instructors are still working officers and handcuff resisting guys often.

 

[JR 137]

No accountability by anyone's standards.

Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.

You can watch countless resisting people get cuffed online and on TV shows like Cops. Hang out in the wrong places, and you’ll see people get taken down and cuffed.

My brother-in-law is a New York State Trooper. He’s wrestled down enough resisting suspects and cuffed them.

A lot of those guys don’t have any BJJ, wrestling, MMA nor any other training beyond defensive tactics. My brother-in-law included.

That’s accountability in my book. It’s working far more often than not.

One of my former students’ father is a DT instructor. He’s also a full-time patrolling officer, not a desk-jockey. Having a great conversation with him, he said “My martial arts training is zero. They keep having me teach DT because I’m good at it. I’m good at the tactics and good at teaching it.” He was an MP in the Marine Corps, worked State Corrections after discharge, and left that when he got into the police academy. I’d say his work experience is accountability enough.

Side note: we were talking about MA in general and his thoughts on different arts and combat sports. He said he finds the people who do the best with DT training are wrestlers and boxers. Wrestlers are typically great at getting a guy to the ground and getting out of stuff. Guys from both of those typically have a mental toughness that carries over well.

 

[drop bear]

Our instructors are still working officers and handcuff resisting guys often.

So at the level of the guy in OP,s video?

 

[drop bear]

You can watch countless resisting people get cuffed online and on TV shows like Cops. Hang out in the wrong places, and you’ll see people get taken down and cuffed.

My brother-in-law is a New York State Trooper. He’s wrestled down enough resisting suspects and cuffed them.

A lot of those guys don’t have any BJJ, wrestling, MMA nor any other training beyond defensive tactics. My brother-in-law included.

That’s accountability in my book. It’s working far more often than not.

One of my former students’ father is a DT instructor. He’s also a full-time patrolling officer, not a desk-jockey. Having a great conversation with him, he said “My martial arts training is zero. They keep having me teach DT because I’m good at it. I’m good at the tactics and good at teaching it.” He was an MP in the Marine Corps, worked State Corrections after discharge, and left that when he got into the police academy. I’d say his work experience is accountability enough.

Side note: we were talking about MA in general and his thoughts on different arts and combat sports. He said he finds the people who do the best with DT training are wrestlers and boxers. Wrestlers are typically great at getting a guy to the ground and getting out of stuff. Guys from both of those typically have a mental toughness that carries over well.

Whether or not your DT instructor is any good is a different argument to whether he has to be.

And whether the students can apply what is being taught.

If I can't sub a guy in BJJ. Nobody will let me sub them. New guy rolls in the door and I have to fight him on equal terms. Every time. Sometimes new people even beat me and I have to address that.

That sort of accountability.

Dt instructors are generally not trying to wrestle on hand cuffs at the end of every session against every guy who turns up.

If they did. I imagine would get pretty good at it.

 

[ballen0351]

No accountability by anyone's standards.

Show me one video of a DT instructor actually handcuffing a resisting guy.

Well they generally dont advertise that stuff for MANY reasons. Just like we dont film swat tactics, active shooter response tactics just because it's not on youtube doesn't mean it doesnt work. However since EVERY cop has some form of Defensive Tactics and most arrests dont end in Gunfire I'm pretty confindent it works just fine most of the time.

 

[TMA17]

If I wasn't getting that real world pressure testing, or accountability as PB stated, from the curriculum, I'd probably make sure I was in good shape and getting physicallly stronger. That may not teach you how to fight per se, but it's worth something.

 

[ballen0351]

So at the level of the guy in OP,s video?

That really wasnt that high of a lvl of resistance.

 

[ballen0351]

Dt instructors are generally not trying to wrestle on hand cuffs at the end of every session against every guy who turns up.

If they did. I imagine would get pretty good at it.

You seem to know alot about what Law Enforcement DT instructors do and dont di. how long exactly have you been one?

 

[Buka]

Don'tcha just love it when somebody who has never fished tells you how to fish?

 

[drop bear]

You seem to know alot about what Law Enforcement DT instructors do and dont di. how long exactly have you been one?

20 years give or take.

 

[CB Jones]

So at the level of the guy in OP,s video?

Our guys are pretty squared away.

Whether or not your DT instructor is any good is a different argument to whether he has to be.

And whether the students can apply what is being taught.

If I can't sub a guy in BJJ. Nobody will let me sub them. New guy rolls in the door and I have to fight him on equal terms. Every time. Sometimes new people even beat me and I have to address that.

That sort of accountability.

You don't think the risk of serious injury or death is accountability?