Ephedra Debate - Was Re: Creatine, to take or not to take

Discussion in 'Health Tips for the Martial Artist' started by J-kid, Aug 21, 2002.

  1. Bagatha

    Bagatha Guest

    Wooo Go sister!
     
  2. WilliamTLear

    WilliamTLear Guest


    Cassidy,

    I have been away from these martial arts forums for a while now, and boy was I shocked when I logged on to find a black belt slamming a color belt with personal attacks all the way down a string as long as this one.

    Nightingale decided to start over at white belt due to the difference in the curriculums between the studio she studied at and the new one she attends now. Most Kenpo studios have a strict set of requirements for rank advancement, which usually involves learning a number of specific self-defense techniques between belt levels. The techniques that she learned at her old studio are not the same which are taught at the one she currently attends... In my opinion, she made a powerful statement by tying on the lower rank to reflect her skill level and knowledge in her present learning environment.

    Your apology to Nightingale seems like a hollow one at best, and personally I find it insulting. I hope she gives your apology the merit it deserves and drops the lid on it before she flushes. Someone is going to leave this expereince with their dignity and honor intact, and brother I'm affraid you strayed from that path a long time ago.

    Sincerely,
    Billy "Give me a break" Lear :shrug:
     
  3. cassidy

    cassidy Orange Belt

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    No it was actually meant as one. However I have never heard of a school taking away a rank. For instance yes I am a black belt, however when I started at my kajukembo school I still wear my blackbelt, with a blue piece of tape on the end for my rank at that school. No one has the right to strip rank except for who gave it. Like I said I can see her resoning for doing it herself and I can respect that. Now martial arts wise I know quite a bit. But understand I have been bodybuilding fo a long time,and she chose to call me out on something, I produced a valid point. She said it wasn't and she produced valid points. However none of the companies named in her posts were legit companies under fire. So that being said it was a sincere apology and understanding.
     
  4. WilliamTLear

    WilliamTLear Guest

    I am curious about who you are and where you are... You seem to be quite fond of the way an old friend of mine does thundering hammers. Do you know him?

    Sincerely,
    Billy
     
  5. cassidy

    cassidy Orange Belt

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    As to who I am and where I am what would you like to know. Nust be quick I am off work in 30 minutes. Right now I am in abilene in the airforce. I suppose you are refering to larry K. Well I have only met him once at a seminar at my old school. I was very impressed. He is a big,quick,powerful man. Very good technique and I thought it was a good example of the technique.
    What else would you like to know?
     
  6. cassidy

    cassidy Orange Belt

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    ok buddy ten more minutes until I leave what else would you like to know.
     
  7. WilliamTLear

    WilliamTLear Guest

    If you'd like to discuss things further, either about Larry Kongaika (a good man), or anything else for that matter, drop me an e-mail. My address is williamtlear@yahoo.com

    :flushed:
     
  8. Cthulhu

    Cthulhu Senior Master

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    She didn't say her rank was stripped bu the school. She said she chose to wear a white belt on her own[/b]. Nobody made her do this, she chose to do it on her own.

    Cthulhu
     
  9. Nightingale

    Nightingale Senior Master

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    I didn't "call you out" as you put it. I simply asked you to produce scientific evidence to back up your claims. You have failed (repeatedly) to do so. And I'm not sure how you can say that THE MAYO CLINIC (referenced in my post of the news article way back on page 2, I think) is not a "legit company". Its one of THE premier research hospitals and organizations in the United States.

    The American Medical Association was also mentioned in the same post. This is from the national health information center's website.

    JAMA is one of the most widely read and widely respected medical journals in the world.


    Here's some specifics about the Mayo Clinic's Research:

    http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/2002/jan/7701a1.pdf

    you have to have acrobat reader to read it, but just in case, this is his summary:

    I think that about sums it up, yes? but if you need more...here ya go.


    and here's yet another article that says the same thing by yet another researcher.

    http://www.mayo.edu/proceedings/2002/jan/7701e1.pdf

    and, from the American Medical Association at http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/1616-6825.html

    All I've asked you to do (repeatedly) is to show me a research study or a published research related document written or performed by someone who has nothing to gain financially from the companies that sell these drugs that says ephedra is safe. Are you unable to do so?
     
  10. Kirk

    Kirk Guest

    Again .. the reason why no reports exist is because it is ILLEGAL.

    The FDA approval process is quite specific, and it is against the
    law
    to publish ANY material claiming health benefits unless it's
    gone through the process. The lack of evidence in this matter is
    NOT NOT NOT NOT proof of a lack of health benefits! There's
    regulations in place to prevent any such claims.

    And again, the AMA has been proven, time and time again to be
    biased in their "facts". They're an organization fully in control of
    medicine in this country. They claim dangerous risks in
    accupuncture and chiropractors. Yet so many have FIRST HAND
    knowledge of benefits associated to both. The AMA can, and has
    been bought .. PLENTY of times. The most recent one that comes
    to mind is REDUX. The AMA said it was okay. Turns out it wasn't.
    If the AMA is such an authority, explain this one to me.

    The fact of the matter is scientific research in this country is
    tainted by money. They can prove anything you want them to,
    if you pay them enough. REDUX was a pay off by the
    pharmaceutical company that developed it, and it was passed.
    Now a lot of people are still suffering as a result of your almighty
    AMA's approval.
     
  11. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    (* Sorry Kirk I was posting while you were also. *)

    Cassidy My Friend,

    I have had a friend(s) in the Navy and in the Air Force. They were given shots and pills depending upon what the 'event' they were preparing for. If it was night time I hear they could see in low light really well. One of the guys who was dropped from a ground mission, now has lost all his hair from some of the chemicals they gave him. Balding is not in either side of his family.

    Yet you said to leave the military thing along since we knew nothing about it, I would like you to explain more. Since I know nothing about it. I do know that if you sign up for 'Service' to one of our armed forces then you no longer have all of your rights as a citizen. That is correct. The first is you are the property of the Armed Force you signed up with. You cannot leave without their premission, if you break a rule they can keep you indefinitely until they think the event has been sufficiently punished, even if it is years passed the contract you signed with them. For that date is only if you have been good and done your service to your country.

    So, if the Armed Forces decides to pump you full of drugs, chemicals or what ever, what choice do you have. Many drugs and vaccines are tested on the Military before being release to the public. Did you know that the US Military gave people the Syphilis on purpose and then tried to come up with a cure.

    Or at least that is how I understand it from the History Channel.

    Now since most of the information I have is from talking to Military people or watching TLC/Discovery/History Channels I cannot post a link. For that I apologize, yet this is my experience talking down a friend or two who were still dealing with withdrawal or side effects of some of the stuff the military gave them. PROOF, none needed for how could the US Government allow this to happen.

    You mentions the FDA, and I think the FDA is a JOKE. IN 1976 the U.S. Congress passed a LAW that Saccharine would be banned unless there was another U.S. Made sugar substitute on the market by 1982. They did not want to use the 'L' Sugars from Europe (* Note: some of the 'L' Sugars are now being approved and used here in the States Twenty Plus Years Later *) So, Searle Industries started to develop Nutra Sweet or Equal or Aspartame. They took out gag orders against their researchers that left the company they took them to court and filed charges against them for industrial espionage and ruined their careers, all because they wanted to be the approved sugar substitute to replace saccharine. Now a real interesting thing happened, in the 1980 election process, Searle Industries gave $1 Million Dollars to the Illinois State fund for the Republicans and also another $ 1 Million Dollars to the National Republican fund. Later they did the same donations but to the Ronald Reagan Illinois Fund and to his National fund. The donated a total of $4 million dollars to the campaign process.

    So the Director of the FDA is appointed by the President of the United States of America. The party made their recommendations to the President to approve people for jobs. The first FDA Director then did very little in his six month stay in the Job before moving to the Commercial field, yet he approved Nutra Sweet a U.S. Made Sugar Substitute for dry goods and gum only. This opened the door. The testing had been by Searle Industries and all of it was 100% favorable. Nothing bad. The next Director of the FDA then approved the use of Nutra Sweet for POP and other products but not for baking. He did not authorize any additional FDA testing, he only stated that unless some independent testing came to light in the next year to prove otherwise, then it would be approved. He then also retired after six months. The next director actually served about two years and he approved some of the testing that followed, but that would take years to do and validate independently. The damage had been done, it was approved for general consumption. Now this director was lobbied by the Searle Industries and they did get him to approve the use of Equal et al with baking but less than 400 degrees F.

    Now one would want to ask why less than 400 Degrees F. IT breaks down at or over 400 degrees F. HMMMM now the human body is only around 98.6 Degrees F yet, we process food. How do we do that? We have catalysts that lower the reaction temperature of the chemicals in our body. This allows for the dissolving of and burning of food, not just cooking it. The relative temperature in your stomach is 1100 to 1200 degree F with the acids and catalysts. If this is true, then what about the 400 deg F mark? Does this not concern you. It concerned me.

    Now another step the FDA took to cover their collective asses was to take the allow the states to approve it process. All the Directors of the FDA when it came to Nutra Sweet did the same thing, they approved it ,kind of, but left it up to the states to approve independently.

    New Mexico's single house of congress approved it blindly. Then one of the Biology PHD's at the U of NM wanted to keep his grad students busy and had then tell him the contents of the diet coke from his garage. Now the average temp in his garage was about 108 to 118 degrees, it was August. It had broke down into some really nasty drugs, Methyl Alcohol (* Causes Headaches and possible blindness *), it also broke down into Formic Acid (* Which can only be processed into Formaldehyde and stored in the liver *), and other chemicals including a chemical that shut down the sweet urge suppressant gland (* This is the natural chemical your body produces to tell you no more sugars *).

    Also at MIT there was a another PHD who did some research and found out that Nutra Sweet changes the brain wave patterns of the young and the old and women going through menopause.

    OH yeah why did the Diet pops all have a warning about caution contains some ******* Drug? Why was this then the number one thing that pregnant women were told to avoid? it effect their unborn child’s brain waves and also the baby would test falsely to some really nasty birth defects. The actions taken to help the child for these birth defects would actually then hurt the child’s development.

    I found this and most of my data at the Library, in Magazines from 1980 through 1984. Also do some research for banned subjects in New Mexico etc,...



    With respect to everyone
    :asian:
     
  12. Kirk

    Kirk Guest

    Rich,

    Great post! I'd just like to comment on one thing:

    If military usage isn't enough proof of the postive aspects of
    drugs usage, then it also isn't proof enough of the negative
    aspects. So whether the military takes creatine or not .. it doesn't
    help either side in this argument.
     
  13. Nightingale

    Nightingale Senior Master

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    excellent observation, Kirk.


    I would also like to comment on your information regarding the AMA. You said they were "bought" to say that redux is safe... I don't know this story and don't have time to research it, so for the moment, I will take your word on the matter. However, please note that it wouldn't make any sense to "buy" someone to say a drug such as ephedra, which has the potential to make a lot of money, is NOT safe. There is no financial reason to do so. The AMA has absolutely nothing to gain by saying that ephedra is not safe. They are simply concurring with the research that has been performed by many reputable organizations, and somehow I doubt that someone is buying off every single independent researcher. Again, that wouldn't make financial sense.
     
  14. Kirk

    Kirk Guest

    With regards to redux .. for it to be a prescription drug, it needs
    AMA and FDA approval. And since it's been pulled off the shelves,
    and no longer has this approval. It wasn't available for too long.
    Who's at fault here? Something had to go wrong with their
    $cientific te$ting ... DREADFULLY wrong, y'know?

    With regards to their tests about ephedra. Again, let me say, I
    don't take it, and I don't claim to know either way about it's
    safety. But I don't feel that the AMA or FDA is an authority either.
    Just like congress, both of these federal organizations have
    lobby. Lobbyists can push for or against the approval, or the
    DATE of the approval of medicinal treatments and medicines,
    diet plans, etc. Now if lobbyists can buy a congressman's vote,
    logic states that they can buy the AMA's approval or disapproval.
    They have, in the past had scientific research proving the terrible,
    terrible hazards of eating eggs. Yet now there's "new" research
    by them telling us "wellll, they're actually kind of healthy". At one
    time they didn't approve of low carb, high protein diets, but now
    they say the Zone diet "has positive effects".

    There's a surgical process awaiting FDA approval now, where
    a MICROSCOPIC incision in your eye, and replacement of the
    lens inside there (EXACTLY what cataract surgery is) fitting to
    the shape of your eye to provide 20/20 vision. It's been "held
    up" in getting approved because the lobby of these laser surgery
    eye places have spend a boat load of money on expensive lasers.

    I hope I'm ONLY making the point that the AMA or FDA 's approval
    on something .... well .. just isn't worth it's weight.

    Independent studies, well .. I'd still look into who funded the
    study (follow the money). Just my opinion here, but I bet that
    I could fund research to prove damn near anything. But who
    has the money to prove that theory? LOL

    With regards to Reishi mushrooms (note my earlier post) there's
    TONS of research outside the U.S., and I've seen one done by
    UTSA. That are HARD to get ahold of. So many inside the U.S fear
    retribution by the FDA. I've seen "independent studies" done that
    claim that it's just a mushroom, no benefits, no harmful side
    effects. I personally believe otherwise, and so do LOTS and LOTS
    of people in Japan, China, France, England, as well as here. But
    I can't find squat that's too positive about it on the web. Why is
    that?
     
  15. Nightingale

    Nightingale Senior Master

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    I'm not saying that the AMA (a private organization) or the FDA (a government oraganization) is the end authority on anything, and as I said before, I don't know anything about mushrooms or redux, and I don't have time to research it, so I'm going to stick to the topic of ephedra (which I was considering taking, so I researched it extensively) and I ask you to do the same for the sake of keeping the debate on track.

    What I am saying is that I have independent scientific research to back up my opinion. I have LOTS of independent scientific research to back up my opinion, funded by many different grants and organizations. Cassidy does not seem to have any independent research at all to back up his opinion, only his personal experience. While personal experience definitely carries weight, the studies I looked at have taken into account the personal experiences of THOUSANDS of people, and came to a conclusion that there are problems with this drug.

    Who should I trust? Scientists from the Mayo Clinic, who have excellent reputations in their fields, or one single random person on the internet who says that he and his buddies have had a good experience?
     
  16. Nightingale

    Nightingale Senior Master

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    I am not and have never denied the benefits of ephedra. What I am saying is that according to the research, the benefits are not worth the risk.

    And frankly, these companies do publish advertisments claiming the health benefits of their drugs. They claim weight loss and more energy.

    From the Muscletech Website regarding Hydroxycut:

    Sounds like they're claiming health benefits to me.

    From the Xenadrine website:

    Again, they're claiming health benefits.
     
  17. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    The fact that the military does something or doesn't do something only points out 1 thing - that they do what they want. To me, it speaks heavily that the specifically ban a substance.

    I tend to agree with the AMA and FDA comments. Those however are 2 sources out of many that have been cited.

    Kirk, show me a link to something verifying that it is illegal to comment.

    Herbs are not controled by any particular group for reasons of purety, safety, or consistancy. It has been shown in unbiased tests that often times what you buy is not what you get. Ma Haung is an herb. I have seen similar warnings about Yohimbe (natures viagara) and those with heart problems...but never on the label.

    We have over 2 dozen studies that say ephedra is bad. We have seen nothing but ad copy that says otherwise. Show me -1- study. US Laws do not apply in other countries...find us 1 non-US study that supports the claims this herb is safe. I've gone through 5 search engines, a few hundred pages and found none that aren't tied to a manufacturer.

    Note: Xenadrine is a product containing ephedra
    ephedrine is
    banned by the International Olympic Committee.
    banned by the US Millitary
    banned by the NFL
    banned by the NCAA
    banned by the several bodybuilding organizations
    sales of ephedrine-containing products in Texas have been restricted to those over age 18

    If there wasn't a risk associated with it, why would these and many other organizations that rely on the benifits ephedra provides ban it?


    More info
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/pierce7ii.htm
    http://www.fastathlete.com/ask.html
    http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/brent14.htm
     
  18. Kirk

    Kirk Guest



    Well I don't see why the burden of proof falls to me. It makes
    perfect, sound logical sense that the law exists to me. Too many
    charlatans claim "natural AIDS cure" and what not.

    Plus, have you seen the FDA's website??? It's HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    But since you asked, I'll give you this ONE. It's from the FDA's
    website (check the URL).

    http://www.fda.gov/cder/warn/cyber/2002/CFSANhealthResouces.htm

    Nightingale, again, I don't take products with ephedra. But the
    point remains that studies in this country aren't to be taken as
    solid fact. History says otherwise, and the proof says otherwise.

    I know I sound like a conspiracy nut, but facts are facts. Too
    many independent studies end up eating their words. Check
    out drugawareness.org you might be surprised.
    Independent studies aren't always as "independant" as they
    claim.

    Note .. the most shocking stuff you may find are on SSRI's.
     
  19. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    Thanks Kirk. I'l check those out. Wasn't 'burden of proof', just wanted a link to check on what ya refered to.

    Right, thats why I said anywhere in the world. I'm certain other countries have had studies done in them.

    All I've been asking is for 1 website thats a reliable source, that is not connected to a manufacturer or vendor.

    Obviously someone of intellegence wouldn't just walk into a gym, read a few brochues n start popping magic pills. So, I'm asking for independent research to refute the mounting number of claims this stuff is harmful.

    I called up a local Golds Gym and asked them about it. They said the stuff works (no ones been denying that), but that there were safer alternatives that gave comparable results.


    I repeat:
    We have over 2 dozen studies that say ephedra is bad. We have seen nothing but ad copy that says otherwise. Show me -1- study. US Laws do not apply in other countries...find us 1 non-US study that supports the claims this herb is safe. I've gone through 5 search engines, a few hundred pages and found none that aren't tied to a manufacturer.
     
  20. Kirk

    Kirk Guest

    When I was working on the site for the mushrooms, I saw
    a lot of research papers. But I couldn't find ONE on the net at
    that time to link to either (about the benefits of the 'shrooms).
    Of course I couldn't find any saying it was BAD either (being fair).
    And this was from ANY country. But the Japanese use LOADS
    upon LOADS of this stuff.

    Are yours saying "bad" or saying CAN BE bad? I haven't checked
    out research on it, but I've seen news reports, and they're just
    saying it can be easily overdosed on.123
     

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