Ephedra Debate - Was Re: Creatine, to take or not to take

Discussion in 'Health Tips for the Martial Artist' started by J-kid, Aug 21, 2002.

  1. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47,249
    Likes Received:
    765
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Land of the Free
    Additional Information:
    http://yoga.about.com/library/weekly/aa110900a.htm
    Her article further goes on to state:
    Her references are listed as:
    Please read the full article.



    The NEJM lists the following documents:
    http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/343/25/1833
    Morgenstern, L.B., Viscoli, C.M., Kernan, W.N., Brass, L.M., Broderick, J.P., Feldmann, E., Wilterdink, J.L., Brott, T., Horwitz, R.I. (2003). Use of Ephedra-containing products and risk for hemorrhagic stroke. Neurology 60: 132-135 [Abstract] [Full Text]

    Marcus, D. M., Grollman, A. P. (2002). Botanical Medicines -- The Need for New Regulations. N Engl J Med 347: 2073-2076 [Full Text]

    Skinner, C. M., Rangasami, J. (2002). Preoperative use of herbal medicines: a patient survey. Br J Anaesth 89: 792-795 [Abstract] [Full Text]

    Grollman, A. P. (2002). Commentary #3 on Astin's Special Theme Commentary. Acad Med 77: 871-873 [Full Text]

    Markman, M. (2002). Safety Issues in Using Complementary and Alternative Medicine. J Clin Oncol 20: 39s-41 [Abstract] [Full Text]

    Gilbert, G. J., Petro, D. J., Singhal, A. B. (2002). Cerebral vasoconstriction and stroke after use of serotonergic drugs. Neurology 59: 651-652 [Full Text]

    Jordan, J., Tank, J., Shannon, J. R., Diedrich, A., Lipp, A., Schroder, C., Arnold, G., Sharma, A. M., Biaggioni, I., Robertson, D., Luft, F. C. (2002). Baroreflex Buffering and Susceptibility to Vasoactive Drugs. Circulation 105: 1459-1464 [Abstract] [Full Text]

    Metcalfe, K., Corns, C., Fahie-Wilson, M., Mackenzie, P. (2002). Chinese medicines for slimming still cause health problems. BMJ 324: 679-679 [Full Text]

    (2001). La Direction des produits de sante naturels : un peu de scepticisme naturel. Can Med Assoc J 164: 615-615 [Full Text]

    (2001). Some natural scepticism about the Natural Health Products Directorate. Can Med Assoc J 164: 613-613 [Full Text]

    Yanovski, S. Z., Yanovski, J. A. (2002). Obesity. N Engl J Med 346: 591-602 [Full Text]

    (2000). Risks with Phenylpropanolamine and Ephedra Alkaloids. Journal Watch (General) 2000: 1-1 [Full Text]

    (2001). Dangers of Dietary Supplements with Ephedra Alkaloids. Journal Watch Cardiology 2001: 3-3 [Full Text]

    Haller, C. A, Dyer, J. E., Ko, R., Olson, K. R (2002). Making a diagnosis of herbal-related toxic hepatitis. eWJM 176: 39-44 [Full Text]

    Ernst, E. (2001). ""Alternative"" Therapies For Asthma : Reason For Concern?. Chest 120: 1433-1434 [Full Text]

    Boucher, J. L., Shafer, K. J., Chaffin, J. A. (2001). Weight Loss, Diets, and Supplements: Does Anything Work?. Diabetes Spectr 14: 169-175 [Full Text]

    Margolis, M. L. (2001). A Survey of the Use of Herbal Agents Among Philadelphia Veterans Affairs Medical Center Pulmonary Outpatients. Chest 119: 1981-1982 [Full Text]

    Hutchins, G. M., Traub, S. J., Hoyek, W., Hoffman, R. S., Haller, C. A., Benowitz, N. L. (2001). Dietary Supplements Containing Ephedra Alkaloids. N Engl J Med 344: 1095-1097 [Full Text]

    Fleming, G. A. (2000). The FDA, Regulation, and the Risk of Stroke. N Engl J Med 343: 1886-1887 [Full Text]

    Talalay, P., Talalay, P. (2001). The Importance of Using Scientific Principles in the Development of Medicinal Agents from Plants. Acad Med 76: 238-247 [Abstract] [Full Text]
     
  2. Kirk

    Kirk Guest

    Well, my opinion on that is of course AMA physicians, who can't
    get kick backs for suggest ephedra products, are of course going
    to say it's bad for you. Just like they do with chiropractors and
    chinese healing methods, and accupunture. What you've just
    provided above is nothing but this MD or that MD, this AMA journal
    of medicine, or that. Basically .. AMA/FDA people. Quote as many
    as you like, you're still giving me ONE source.

    That being said ...
    This link starts with a Harvard study, and if you keep
    scrolling, there's more. E.g. St. Luke's Hospital / Columbia
    University.

    I found independent studies galore. The results, yes were
    published on a suplement company's website, but the results
    were not only posted, but the company doing the test was
    listed. In short order I called Miami Research Associates who
    were listed by one company. I asked them if they truly did do
    the study (which was in fact listed on MRA's site). I told them
    what the company's claim of their research was about ephedra,
    and asked if in fact it was truley thier findings. They said it was. (I spoke with Mary in the nutrion research department).
     
  3. Kirk

    Kirk Guest

    The biggest problem now is that I have personally given an
    endorsement to take ephedra, when I in fact don't take it
    myself. I have in the past, and got REALLY wired and shaky as
    a result. I also heard that one shouldn't be taking it if you have
    a heart condition. While I don't have a heart condition a bunch of
    my family members do, so I've opted to try ephedra free products.

    So DO NOT take my word for it.
     
  4. Sanddragon

    Sanddragon Guest

    Quick Question here, I read thru mounds of info, the flames, the attacks, the claims that I am this and I am that. That ephedra is a killer and that no it is the best thing since partially burned toast with Jam. However I did not ever see an answer to the question that all this was about. Creatine and if it is benificial or not?

    Now I may have missed it but I saw everyone get worked up about many things mentioned above and no indepth posting about creatine. I apologize if I missed it but after reading this entire expectionally long winded thread this is were it lead me.
     
  5. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47,249
    Likes Received:
    765
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Land of the Free
    SandDragon, you make a -very- good point, and it is to answer it I just finished pulling out the Creatine information and putting it in its own thread.


    Administrator Note:

    The discussion of Creatine has been moved to its own thread, due to this one turning into a supliment debate. As there is much value in this debate, and to seperate the original intent (which has gotten lost in here I think) we have refocused -this- thread on the topic of Supliment usage pros/cons.

    Thank you.
     
  6. Nightingale

    Nightingale Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,768
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    California
    Kirk,

    The study you referenced was a "double blind" with a total of 167 people. That means that 84 people received a placebo, and 83 received the actual drug.

    83 people is an extremely small sample size, but the researchers did note that the participants experienced rapid heart rates, increased blood pressure, along with quite a few other side effects.

    Also, take note that the participants of this study underwent heavy medical screening prior to starting the program. They were given EKGs, heart monitors to wear for 24 hours straight, screened for QT duration, tachycardia, premature heartbeats, and other heart problems. Anyone with any abnormalities, no matter how insignificant, was excluded.

    The average person cannot undergo this kind of health screening prior to starting a fitness regime. A large concern with ephedra products is that they may aggrivate conditions that are already present but yet undiscovered. People cannot afford (and their health insurance will not cover) this kind of cardiac workup.

    I'm not saying that its something you shouldn't do because of a possible pre-existing condition. However, the studies I referenced did state that ephedra poses a risk even if there is no preexisting condition (and I quoted more than the AMA).
     
  7. Nightingale

    Nightingale Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,768
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    California
    sorry, Kaith...lol. you and I posted at the same time. can you move my post to the new thread?




    mod note: hit edit instead of quote...sorry :)
     
  8. Kirk

    Kirk Guest

    And can you provide proof that the same thing did NOT happen
    in the studies you quoted? That's how research works, and that's
    the whole entire point I've been trying to make.

    In my opinion, you didn't. Is the doctor a U.S. physician? Then
    he's a member of the AMA. Docs do NOT want to cross them, they
    screw their careers up if they do. Was the journal a medical
    journal?? Then it's the AMA (written by U.S. Doctors).
     
  9. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47,249
    Likes Received:
    765
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Land of the Free


    Actually, I think it fits here, unless you were writing about Creatine?
     
  10. Nightingale

    Nightingale Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,768
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    California
    so you're saying that every single study done in the united states is biased?! :rofl:

    and doctors are not required to be members of the AMA. The AMA is a private organization. Many doctors are not members.

    I have three doctors and one medical researcher (PhD, not MD) in my extended family. Two of the three doctors are not AMA members, and neither is the PhD.
     
  11. Kirk

    Kirk Guest

    Well not card carrying members .... but they still are IMO. This is
    where we split, and can't discuss any further. You believe a Phd
    said it, and MD said it .. so it must be true. And I just don't buy
    that for one second. Ask these same friends of yours about
    accupuncture, and chiropracty. On second thought, don't.
    Because if you come back and say that they endorse either one,
    I won't believe you anyway. I don't buy that western medicine
    knows all, sorry. And I never will.

    Dr Barry Sears, the author of the zone diet books has been
    ridiculed by the medical community. He's earned his medical
    degree just the same as the others. But he has opposed them.
    So many in the medical community call him a quack. But
    THOUSANDS of people have been able to stop taking diabetes
    medication because of him. By the logic you've presented on this
    thread, he's still WRONG. Because so many independent studies
    prove that his high protein diets are so terrible. Yet TENS OF
    THOUSANDS of people are healthier now than they have been,
    ever in their lives?
     
  12. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47,249
    Likes Received:
    765
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Land of the Free
    The american medical community is begining to open their eyes top eastern concepts. My own doctor recomended I see a chiropractor for an injury I had, and we had a long discussion about accupuncture and herbs. He was also a younger doctor, not one thats 30+ years out of school and behind in his journals. In fact my health plan covered herbs, accupuncture and chiro as part of the package.

    There is extensive information going back thousands of years on these herbs in Chinese medicine.

    From Herbalist Review, Issue 2000 #2:
    http://www.rmhiherbal.org/review/2000-2.html
    Another detailed description of Ephedra is at
    http://www.drgenie.com/Naturaopathic/E/Ephedra.htm


    From : EPHEDRA NEWSLETTER #1 by Lennart & Sanne The Ephedra Site
    http://www.ephedra.demon.nl/news/newsletter1.html
    ==================================
    http://www.eardoc.com/Ma-Huang.htm

    I am finding Non-US, Non-AMA related sites indicating the correct use of this herb, and its not for weight gain or an energy boost.
     
  13. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,560
    Likes Received:
    435
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    No, not necessarily.

    I'm not sure how you mean this--certainly, not all medical journals are formally associated with the AMA. See this site for the AMA's journals.

    Note, physicians are often influenced by pharmaceutical reps., though the situation is improving somewhat. They are rarely influenced by makers of supplements however.
     
  14. JDenz

    JDenz Guest

    Pretty much every issue in the health field ends in this debate. The AMA and FDA have dropped the ball so many times that they are definitly not up on breaking issues and medicines. Any thing that involves politics is always going to be a flawed system. The same arguements that we are going through now can be made for anything. I can say the AMA FDA has dropped the ball on steriods. Then I would say that the government aproves giving out steriods and growth hormone. Then we would argue about that. No one can win these arguements. Like Kirk said you can't just do a study then make a claim on a prodect.
    By the way in that mustletecarticle talking about hydroxycut they are not talking about Ephedra.
     
  15. Nightingale

    Nightingale Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2002
    Messages:
    2,768
    Likes Received:
    14
    Trophy Points:
    98
    Location:
    California
    hydroxycut contains ephedra.

    and my uncle, the PhD medical researcher, uses accupuncture himself for residual pain from a back injury (a few fused vertebrae from a motorcycle accident). a quote from him: "western medicine is very good at treating the big things, the cancers, the heart conditions, the organ failures, the major trauma. We cut people open, fix what's wrong, and sew them back up again. We are not, however, good at handling chronic problems and chronic pain. Eastern medicine is much better at this, and we have a lot to learn." He actually referred me to an accupuncturist to treat a stomach problem, but I haven't had a chance to go yet. I'll probably go sometime in march.

    Not all American doctors are corrupt, evil pawns of the AMA, Kirk.
     
  16. arnisador

    arnisador Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    44,560
    Likes Received:
    435
    Trophy Points:
    193
    Location:
    Terre Haute, IN
    It is accurate in this sense: The AMA is authorized to set standards for allopathic medical practice and I believe medical education (through an associated organization, the CME), much as the lawyers and engineers have their own groups that accredit law and engineering schools, and accreditation is necessary for licensing. See here.

    Of course, this still does not affect osteopathic physicians, who are governed by the AOA. There is also a sense in which dentists and podiatrists, and in some states naturopaths and I believe chiropractors, are also physicians (with limited authority).
     
  17. JDenz

    JDenz Guest

    agian
    By the way in that mustletecarticle talking about hydroxycut they are not talking about Ephedra.
    They are talking about another ingredant they put in there. Hydroxy cut is one of the most tame mu hung products out there I bet there isn't even what they put on the label in there. i never even got a little buzz on it. Although I think it is way better the rip fuel. I haven't taken to many fat burners so I can't comment on them. But Hydroxy cut worked great for me. No I don't work for musle tech and there protein is way over priced
     
  18. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2001
    Messages:
    47,249
    Likes Received:
    765
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Land of the Free
    I believe the comment about Hydroxycut was about the claims being made, not the ingredients. According to the graphic on the website, it looks like the product is ephedra free now, but had it at one time. No indication if there is 2 versions of the product.

    http://www.buy-hydroxycut-supplement.com/
    lists the ingredients as Hydroxagen, Hydroxycitric Acid, HydroxyTea, Guarana, L-Carnitine, Mahuang (which contains Ephedra) and Willow Bark Extract.
    I would bet the 'active' ingredient mentioned is L-Carnitine.

    http://healthandfitness.com/bbs/nutri/messages/2998.html
    lists the ingredients as:
    Hydroxagen(garcinia cambogia)(50%)....2000mg
    Green Tea(22%)..............910mg
    Sida Cordifolia(6%).............334mg
    White willow bark...............100mg

    http://www.drugstore.com/qxp74244_3...cut/advanced_weight_loss_formula_capsules.htm lists the ingredients as:
    Hydroxycut® Proprietary Blend Ingredients:

    Hydroxagen® (Garcinia cambogia)(fruit & rind)(standardized for 1000mg hydroxycitric acid)
    HydroxyTea™: Guarana Extract (seed), Green Leaf Tea Extract, (standardized for 95% polyphenols [70% catechins (45% epigallocatechin gallate - 90mg EGCG)]), (standardized for 200mg caffeine)
    Ma-Huang Extract (stem & leaf) (standardized for 20mg ephedra alkaloids)
    Willow Bark Extract (purple & white) (standardized for 15mg salicin)
    L-Carnitine Tartrate

    So I find conflicting information on the product on if it does or does not currently contain ephedra.

    This is the text from the mussletech site "A new, advanced Hydroxycut formula is coming soon, and one of its cutting-edge compounds just got better. " that is paired with a graphic of a bottle with a lable saying ephedra free.

    As to the price, the few times I looked for L-Carnitine, I found it to be pricey. That -may- be part of the cost factor. If anyone happens to stop at a GNC or similar and could check the shelf and see if theres 2 versions of the product?
     
  19. white belt

    white belt Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2002
    Messages:
    401
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    midwest USA
    THE FOLLOWING IS AN UNSOLICITED TESTIMONIAL.

    My intermittent cycling of Ma Huang, into my supplement regimen, has helped my fat loss, repair time, circulation and flexibility.

    The downside is not having eyebrows, my fillings pick up my next door neighbors cell phone and I sleep every two days in the closet hanging upside down by my ankles like Grandpa Munster. :)

    All kidding aside, I approach things with the words of Jack LaLanne. "With anything positive, one must use moderation".

    white belt
     
  20. JDenz

    JDenz Guest

    As far as I know HC has never contained Ephedra as long as I have used it the only thing they have changed is the compond that is supposed to bond to carbs so they are not stored as fat. Which after further testing didn't work like they thought it did so they changed the formula.123
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

hydroxycut and wrestlers