Does the advice people give kids being bullied to simply punch them in the face actually end it?

[Buka]

Okay. I'm not being direcr enough, I guess. I think you're wrong. Where a kid is bullied or is being a bully, leaving them to fend for themselves is at best irresponsible, and at worst, dangerous.

Where bullying isn't an issue, sure, I agree with you.

Okay. I'm not being direct enough, I guess.

Being direct is good sometimes.

I think you're wrong.

Sure wouldn't be the first time.


Where a kid is bullied or is being a bully, leaving them to fend for themselves is at best irresponsible, and at worst, dangerous.

I agree. I have never left anybody, child or adult, to fend for themselves against a bully. Not ever. I've been dealing with and teaching people to deal with bullies all my life, even as a kid getting bullied. I've dealt with this subject, taught and counselled kids in high school (under extremely harsh circumstances for several years) some in college, in juvenile detention, in law enforcement and for many ears in dojos. Both my own dojos and other peoples.

I believe the confusion about what I said is twofold, first by my inadequacies in the written word in an online format, but specifically (probably) about this statement I made "kids are learning conflict resolution every day in school. Both personally, and by watching it amongst the other kids."
And they do learn about conflict resolution, unfortunately the kids being bullied don't usually get the benefits of any conflict resolution if nobody steps in. I always step in. Always have, always will.

I'm still doing it today as an old man. Quite well, actually, but it is more difficult. Had one Saturday that was a corker. And a royal pain in the -.

 

[hoshin1600]

thought i would share a couple definitions of bullying.

What Is Bullying
Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated, or has the potential to be repeated, over time. Both kids who are bullied and who bully others may have serious, lasting problems.

In order to be considered bullying, the behavior must be aggressive and include:

• An Imbalance of Power: Kids who bully use their power—such as physical strength, access to embarrassing information, or popularity—to control or harm others. Power imbalances can change over time and in different situations, even if they involve the same people.
• Repetition: Bullying behaviors happen more than once or have the potential to happen more than once

Definition Of Bullying | National Centre Against Bullying
The definition of bullying is when an individual or a group of people with more power, repeatedly and intentionally cause hurt or harm to another person or group of people who feel helpless to respond. Bullying can continue over time, is often hidden from adults, and will probably continue if no action is taken.


so as some of you talk about having a beer after a scuffle with the bully, i dont really see the correlation.
i think the key factors are they involve school age children not adults. and that it is a repeated behavior, not a one time thing. avoiding a bully is not really an option, most of the time.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Middle TN. Like I said, most often those in the fight usually ended up having a drink by sun up. Sure there were times when two people just could not get along so they usually drifted into different circles and moved on with their life. That is my point; move on and find more. Choose to discover there is much more going on around you.
What part of the world are you in that makes this so impossible?

Bullies usually pursue. I can remember kids (and this extends into high school), following their target to other areas of the school, seeking them out to pick on them. I don't know what choices the victim has in association in that situation.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree that it is possible. I think you're projecting a lot onto my post that isbt there. But yeah, in simple term, where kids dont have the natural aptitude to avoid being a victim or victimizing others, leaving them to just figure it out is pretty irresponsible.

Now, to be clear, there are things adults do that help and things that don't help. Suggesting that adults can't help is ignorant.

Sorry if I read more into than was there. I was trying to find the intent in the post.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Where does bullying turn into abuse? I think that is a very fine line to walk. If a 250 ibs husband beats the **** out of his 120 ibs wife everyday its abuse. If a 250 ibs who plays O line on the football team beats the **** out of the 120 science nerd or band geek so to speak its just bullying? I guess I consider bullying to be verbal such as calling names which I would agree is not a crime. When it gets physical that's abuse and that is a crime.

Agree with you completely that exposure therapy is one of the best ways to learn how to resolve issues or deal with your fears.

Bullying and abuse are on a continuum, and not distinct classifications, in my opinion. And there's overlap. In large part, I think the distinction we tend to draw is domestic. When two kids are involved at school, we tend to consider it bullying. If two adults are involved at work, we tend to consider it bullying. Make that spouses or a parent and child, and we call it abuse - whether physical or emotional.

 

[hoshin1600]

If two adults are involved at work, we tend to consider it bullying.

i dont think work relations would be defined as bullying. i would call it harassment/ assault but i can see how the word fits the circumstance behavior and the fact that bullying is a hot topic over the last decade, it makes sense that the use of the word would have carried over to other venues and age groups.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i dont think work relations would be defined as bullying. i would call it harassment/ assault but i can see how the word fits the circumstance behavior and the fact that bullying is a hot topic over the last decade, it makes sense that the use of the word would have carried over to other venues and age groups.

Legally, it's likely to end up (but not start) as harassment. I don't think what we'd call "bullying" at work would ever rise to assault. But I do hear people talk about how a given manager bullies other people, far more often than I hear them calling it harassment or abuse.

 

[dvcochran]

Good post. Whatt are the behavioral patterns of being a victim that you are referring to? Im wondering if these behavioral patterns are really something a young person has much control over themselves. For example if they are just a very shy person or possibly suffering from a mental disorder such as depression or an anxiety disorder. Guess the type of parenting you have as well is a factor. If your a naturally very shy person from an abusive household and that probably led to some mental health issue for the child. Tough for a kid to pull themselves out of that on their own. I think a lot of kids who don't fight back and stand up for themselves have these underlying issues as to why they don't fight back. A emotionally healthy person doesn't just let someone use themselves as a punching bag in my opinion.

Good post. I very much subscribe to idea of working on oneself instead of trying to fix everyone around you.

 

[dvcochran]

Sure I guess in my example the husband beating the crap out of woman and putting her would be the felony situation your talking about. Probaly giving her a black eye would be more of a misdeamnor domestic violence situation. Verbal abuse I think depends a lot on the situation as well. A classmate calling you fat or gay something like that I would not consider really bullying. But your parents verbally abusing you and calling you worthless and you should just kill yourself would be abuse. Verbal abuse can be very damaging to a person even if nothing physical

To be very clear, I do think a husband giving his wife a black eye is abuse. Two guys who get in a fight with one or both ending up with a shiner is really not anything. One guy overpowering the other when totally unsolicited I would call bullying.

 

[JR 137]

We lived in the projects when I was 4-7 years old. We were the only non-black kids. My stepbrothers are Hispanic twins a year older than me. I’m white. We’d be walking to or from school, literally down the hill across the street, and hear “there go the white boys.” It was always more kids than the 3 of us, and they were always older. Not the same exact group of kids every time, but always a few of the core group.

One day we ran home being chased by a group of probably about 5 of them. My stepfather who worked nights at the time sees us run in the house and asks us what’s going on. We tried to play cool saying we were playing chase as he’s looking out the window at the kids. He gave us that look so we told him what was going on. He says “you guys either get out there and fight them, or you stay in here and fight me.” Of course no one’s as big and strong and tough as your father when you’re that age, so went went outside. We held our own for a few minutes, and he came out once things got out of hand.

That group never bothered us again. We weren’t worth their effort, so they moved on to the next group.

After that, we barely backed down individually or as a group. Sure there were people over the years who gave each of us problems, but we fought. Win or lose, the problems didn’t last long. It’s easier to pick on someone who’s not going to fight back, even if they can beat you up.

We were lucky we had each other too though. We fought each other quite a bit. And our father bought us boxing gloves. And he put them on sometimes too.

Some kids don’t have siblings, cousins or even friends to help them out. They’re at a disadvantage here. But regardless of that, if people know you’re willing to fight when push comes to shove (figuratively and literally), they’re typically going to move on to the next target. Most bullies will move on, but some won’t. Those are the hardest ones to deal with.

Bullying is definitely different nowadays than it was when I was in school 80s-1994. When you got home back then, you were fine. The internet didn’t follow you. People weren’t getting ideas and upping their game from YouTube and the like. We weren’t recording things.

On the flip side, bullying is less often nowadays. The kids are more likely to step in and stop it. Kids speak up. Teachers look for it and don’t brush it off like they used to. But it’s definitely hard for teachers and administrators to stop it. Once we know about it, it’s been going on for a while. It’s far less often and out in the open, but it’s far more intense when it happens. Actually, it’s far more emotional/psychological than it is physical.

I’m a school teacher. I’ve seen how it’s different nowadays. I’m not saying it’s the same everywhere, but that’s how it is where I’ve been. And my first teaching job and my wife’s current teaching job are at the same school we went to and graduated from. We’ve seen where it was a generation ago and where it is now.

Edit: No, we’re not high school sweethearts. We knew who each other was, but never hung out or dated. We were out of school a good 10 years before we started dating.

 

[dvcochran]

Does anyone here think that a kid could learn tkd or BJJ by themselves? What about math or history? Or baseball or to play the violin? I don't think so. Why, then, do we think kids can just figure this out? Adults have a role to play, whether that is modelling behaviors, being a good coach, or something else. Sometimes, adults need to be more directly involved.

And like everything else, kids need to do it themselves to build skills. But this lord of the flies mentality is downright medieval .

Agree regarding parents, but I know of no kid that is alone on an island in the U.S. There are a multitude of resources.

 

[dvcochran]

We lived in the projects when I was 4-7 years old. We were the only non-black kids. My stepbrothers are Hispanic twins a year older than me. I’m white. We’d be walking to or from school, literally down the hill across the street, and hear “there go the white boys.” It was always more kids than the 3 of us, and they were always older. Not the same exact group of kids every time, but always a few of the core group.

One day we ran home being chased by a group of probably about 5 of them. My stepfather who worked nights at the time sees us run in the house and asks us what’s going on. We tried to play cool saying we were playing chase as he’s looking out the window at the kids. He gave us that look so we told him what was going on. He says “you guys either get out there and fight them, or you stay in here and fight me.” Of course no one’s as big and strong and tough as your father when you’re that age, so went went outside. We held our own for a few minutes, and he came out once things got out of hand.

That group never bothered us again. We weren’t worth their effort, so they moved on to the next group.

After that, we barely backed down individually or as a group. Sure there were people over the years who gave each of us problems, but we fought. Win or lose, the problems didn’t last long. It’s easier to pick on someone who’s not going to fight back, even if they can beat you up.

We were lucky we had each other too though. We fought each other quite a bit. And our father bought us boxing gloves. And he put them on sometimes too.

Some kids don’t have siblings, cousins or even friends to help them out. They’re at a disadvantage here. But regardless of that, if people know you’re willing to fight when push comes to shove (figuratively and literally), they’re typically going to move on to the next target. Most bullies will move on, but some won’t. Those are the hardest ones to deal with.

Bullying is definitely different nowadays than it was when I was in school 80s-1994. When you got home back then, you were fine. The internet didn’t follow you. People weren’t getting ideas and upping their game from YouTube and the like. We weren’t recording things.

On the flip side, bullying is less often nowadays. The kids are more likely to step in and stop it. Kids speak up. Teachers look for it and don’t brush it off like they used to. But it’s definitely hard for teachers and administrators to stop it. Once we know about it, it’s been going on for a while. It’s far less often and out in the open, but it’s far more intense when it happens. Actually, it’s far more emotional/psychological than it is physical.

I’m a school teacher. I’ve seen how it’s different nowadays. I’m not saying it’s the same everywhere, but that’s how it is where I’ve been. And my first teaching job and my wife’s current teaching job are at the same school we went to and graduated from. We’ve seen where it was a generation ago and where it is now.

Edit: No, we’re not high school sweethearts. We knew who each other was, but never hung out or dated. We were out of school a good 10 years before we started dating.

Great post. Makes the point very well.

 

[JR 137]

I was never a badass fighter but did enjoy the fray in my youth. We grew up in a country setting where fighting was not a means to condemn or identify someone except in extreme instances. We fought for fun most the time; even most of our bar room fights had no malice in them and the fighters usually ended up having a drink with each other before the sun came up. I guess this is a big part of why I have a hard time identifying with most definitions of bullying. Abuse, absolutely. Physical and mental abuse are unquestionably real. It is hard to understand how in a modern society with so much to do and learn how people can get so narrowly focused on certain negatives. In every situation a person can choose to change their environment to disclude or at the least ignore someone. It is a choice, like most things in life.

Some people, all they have is earning and maintaining a reputation as a tough guy. In their mind they’re not smart, they’re not good looking or good with the ladies, they’re not athletes, they’re not popular, they don’t have any really good friends. Their parents ignore and/or abuse them.

In their mind, the only thing that defines them is being able to beat people up. And truth be told, they’re not that good at that either. They’re good at beating up the weak ones, but they won’t pull that stuff with someone who’s at least an equal match. That’s boys.

Girls are a bit different. Same identity crisis and no other way to define themselves, but they’re far more manipulative and conniving. Less physical, although they’ll do that too. And if there’s a guy they’re after, want to get in a circle and/or maintain that, watch out. Guys will give each other bruises; girls will give each other eating disorders. Guys typically won’t go after someone bigger and stronger; girls will attack the alpha females with psychological warfare.

Both are all about control. They’ve got no control elsewhere in their lives, so they’ll fight for it any way they can, figuratively and literally. Everyone needs to feel in control of something and most people have a good sense of control of the basic necessities. The bullies you really need to look out for don’t have that control, so they look elsewhere.

All IMO.

Edit: If you really think about it, it’s not that much different than the abusive husband and father. Everything’s pretty sh!tty in his life. The only thing he’s got is physically and mentally beating others down. Deep down he doesn’t like it, but in his mind he’s got no other way. He’ll take it out on those weaker than him, especially those that feel trapped, but he won’t pull that bullish!t on someone who’s close to an even match. He’ll act tough to save face, but he’ll back down without looking like he backed down. Genuine scum. And coward.

 

[Danny T]

Does anyone here think that a kid could learn tkd or BJJ by themselves? What about math or history? Or baseball or to play the violin? I don't think so. Why, then, do we think kids can just figure this out? Adults have a role to play, whether that is modelling behaviors, being a good coach, or something else. Sometimes, adults need to be more directly involved.

And like everything else, kids need to do it themselves to build skills. But this lord of the flies mentality is downright medieval .

Wow...Steve. Where did I say such? I said kids need to learn. I never said kids are to be left alone to their own resources.

 

[Buka]

thought i would share a couple definitions of bullying.

What Is Bullying
Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated, or has the potential to be repeated, over time. Both kids who are bullied and who bully others may have serious, lasting problems.

In order to be considered bullying, the behavior must be aggressive and include:

• An Imbalance of Power: Kids who bully use their power—such as physical strength, access to embarrassing information, or popularity—to control or harm others. Power imbalances can change over time and in different situations, even if they involve the same people.
• Repetition: Bullying behaviors happen more than once or have the potential to happen more than once

Definition Of Bullying | National Centre Against Bullying
The definition of bullying is when an individual or a group of people with more power, repeatedly and intentionally cause hurt or harm to another person or group of people who feel helpless to respond. Bullying can continue over time, is often hidden from adults, and will probably continue if no action is taken.


so as some of you talk about having a beer after a scuffle with the bully, i dont really see the correlation.
i think the key factors are they involve school age children not adults. and that it is a repeated behavior, not a one time thing. avoiding a bully is not really an option, most of the time.

Sounds like a good definition. But what about with adults and young adults? Would that be classified differently? Intimidation maybe? It’s still bullying to me.

 

[Chrisinmd]

It is very important that the definition used to back theses numbers is understood. I do not disagree at all but I do subscribe to the old saying, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics. I would rather be a victim of true bullying than I had the label of being a statistic.

So do you think the numbers are not correct? What definition are u not agreeing with?

 

[Chrisinmd]

One day we ran home being chased by a group of probably about 5 of them. My stepfather who worked nights at the time sees us run in the house and asks us what’s going on. We tried to play cool saying we were playing chase as he’s looking out the window at the kids. He gave us that look so we told him what was going on. He says “you guys either get out there and fight them, or you stay in here and fight me.” Of course no one’s as big and strong and tough as your father when you’re that age, so went went outside. We held our own for a few minutes, and he came out once things got out of hand.

That group never bothered us again. We weren’t worth their effort, so they moved on to the next group.

So do you think this was the best way your stepdad could have handled the situation? Did you think it caused you any negative effects later in life.

Yeah this parenting style has produced such wonders as Serial Killer Myra Hindley:

Hindley's father had served with the Parachute Regiment and had been stationed in North Africa, Cyprus and Italy during the Second World War.[115] He had been known in the army as a "hard man" and he expected his daughter to be equally tough; he taught her how to fight, and insisted that she "stick up for herself". When Hindley was 8, a local boy approached her in the street and scratched both of her cheeks with his fingernails, drawing blood. She burst into tears and ran into her parents' house, to be met by her father, who demanded that she "Go and punch him [the boy], because if you don't I'll leather you!" Hindley found the boy and succeeded in knocking him down with a sequence of punches, as her father had taught her. As she wrote later, "at eight years old I'd scored my first victory".[116]

Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has suggested that the fight, and the part that Hindley's father played in it, may be "key pieces of evidence" in trying to understand Hindley's role in the Moors murders:

The relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life.

 

[JR 137]

So do you think this was the best way your stepdad could have handled the situation? Did you think it caused you any negative effects later in life.

Yeah this parenting style has produced such wonders as Serial Killer Myra Hindley:

Hindley's father had served with the Parachute Regiment and had been stationed in North Africa, Cyprus and Italy during the Second World War.[115] He had been known in the army as a "hard man" and he expected his daughter to be equally tough; he taught her how to fight, and insisted that she "stick up for herself". When Hindley was 8, a local boy approached her in the street and scratched both of her cheeks with his fingernails, drawing blood. She burst into tears and ran into her parents' house, to be met by her father, who demanded that she "Go and punch him [the boy], because if you don't I'll leather you!" Hindley found the boy and succeeded in knocking him down with a sequence of punches, as her father had taught her. As she wrote later, "at eight years old I'd scored my first victory".[116]

Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has suggested that the fight, and the part that Hindley's father played in it, may be "key pieces of evidence" in trying to understand Hindley's role in the Moors murders:

The relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life.

I’m quite sure there’s far more to her story than that.

The follow up to our fight was simple; when we came back in, he told us “if you run away from them today, you’ll run away from them every day. If you stand up to them, they’ll stop chasing you.” He was right.

We were taught to stand up for ourselves. Violence certainly wasn’t rewarded in our house. We were taught to defend ourselves. The rare times that we started a fight, we had consequences.

None of us grew up to be bullies, abusers, killers, nor anything else like that. We did however learn to stand up for ourselves and not be targeted by anyone who felt like having fun at our expense.

Reading how one situation in someone’s life doesn’t tell you anything close to the whole story. Teaching kids to stand up to an obvious physical threat doesn’t turn them into psychopaths or sociopaths. If it does, how come every MA student who’s taught how to defend themselves doesn’t turn into one? We didn’t take MA classes, but we were taught the same things - defend yourself when you have to, don’t start fights, don’t let people push you around, and have respect for yourself and others who deserve it. We certainly weren’t rewarded for fighting, regardless of if we were defending ourselves or not. And it all started in the home - were were punished every time we fought each other, regardless of the situation.

Being a parent is a balancing act. Teaching my daughters when they should fight back and when they shouldn’t is very difficult. Fortunately they haven’t had to fight, but they’ve seen a few fights at school. Nothing close to a major fight, but it’s hard telling them what they should do when they ask what to do if it happened to them. Unfortunately, they’re truly not going to learn the balance of when to fight back and when to walk away and/or tell someone else until they’re in that situation once or twice.

Myra Hindley had far more than “if someone hits you, you hit them back” parenting.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So do you think this was the best way your stepdad could have handled the situation? Did you think it caused you any negative effects later in life.

Yeah this parenting style has produced such wonders as Serial Killer Myra Hindley:

Hindley's father had served with the Parachute Regiment and had been stationed in North Africa, Cyprus and Italy during the Second World War.[115] He had been known in the army as a "hard man" and he expected his daughter to be equally tough; he taught her how to fight, and insisted that she "stick up for herself". When Hindley was 8, a local boy approached her in the street and scratched both of her cheeks with his fingernails, drawing blood. She burst into tears and ran into her parents' house, to be met by her father, who demanded that she "Go and punch him [the boy], because if you don't I'll leather you!" Hindley found the boy and succeeded in knocking him down with a sequence of punches, as her father had taught her. As she wrote later, "at eight years old I'd scored my first victory".[116]

Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University, has suggested that the fight, and the part that Hindley's father played in it, may be "key pieces of evidence" in trying to understand Hindley's role in the Moors murders:

The relationship with her father brutalised her ... She was not only used to violence in the home but rewarded for it outside. When this happens at a young age it can distort a person's reaction to such situations for life.

Psychology is not so definite as the bolded statement implies. Likely that parenting style contributed, but it takes more than that to "produce" a serial killer. Was she psychopathic (that's apparently not learned)? Did she lack support elsewhere? There are other factors that go into that assessment. The same treatment that one person thrives under will crush another person, and we're not yet clear why that is.

 

[Steve]

i dont think work relations would be defined as bullying. i would call it harassment/ assault but i can see how the word fits the circumstance behavior and the fact that bullying is a hot topic over the last decade, it makes sense that the use of the word would have carried over to other venues and age groups.

There are a lot of things that occur in the workplace that are not harrassment or assault. Simply put, those are both legal terms. There are a lot of destructive behaviors that do not meet the legal definition of assault or harassment that are generally considered workplace bullying.