self defense in public schools

[Gerry Seymour]

I didn't think it needed to be clarified, clearly I over estimated our readership, so to clarify "most" male martial artists not "all".

As for evidence, pick a thread in the self defence section...

Actually, the issue is more a matter of semantics. Many (most?) of us use "self-defense" to refer to the physical defense once an attack starts. I use the term "self-protection" and similar terms for the over-arching topic that includes things like avoidance, de-escalation, etc. It's not a confusion of fighting with self-defense, but a different use of the terms.

 

[Steve]

Actually, the issue is more a matter of semantics. Many (most?) of us use "self-defense" to refer to the physical defense once an attack starts. I use the term "self-protection" and similar terms for the over-arching topic that includes things like avoidance, de-escalation, etc. It's not a confusion of fighting with self-defense, but a different use of the terms.

At best, it's a term that is subject to being defined in a way that is convenient in that moment. It means fighting to each side from time to time, and then when it's inconvenient to define it that way, someone trots out an Abernathy podcast and drops the microphone. I'm waiting for someone to reference the "monkey dance" (not to be confused with the safety dance, which, even though it sounds like it should be relevant, has nothing to do with safety... I mean, you can dance if you want to....).

 

[Steve]

Regarding fighting in schools, it really depends on the school and on the environment in that school. I got into a lot of fights through middle school. By the time I got to high school, I had learned to avoid them for the most part, but it was an urban school and I was, as a Caucasian, a minority. We had gangs, bullies, drugs, and all that, and I ended up in a few fights that I couldn't avoid.

Fast forward, my oldest kids were at a school where fighting just isn't very common. There are bullies, but the environment is very different. They're both adults and out of the house now. My youngest is at a school, and it was hilarious. She told me there are only three bullies in her entire school, and everyone knows who they are. It really seems like social pressure is working well at that school to cause the bullies to be ostracized until they fix their behavior (as opposed to being emboldened by kids who are afraid of becoming victims of bullying themselves). Pretty cool, I think.

Point is, I wouldn't expect any of my kids to ever get into a fight around here at school. However, if they went to an urban, public school like the one I went to (and perhaps the one you're going to in PA), then maybe, yeah. But only if you can avoid it.

Regarding the law and all that, I think that involving the police in schools is not always the best policy.

 

[King Kobra]

My position on this is if the other person gets physical first you can respond in kind and with equal intensity, however in school it usually starts with people beaking each other and just don't engage them in that, ignore them, fully, like they don't exist because at this moment they are proving they are not worth the few seconds it would take to beat them up. If that fails then...

They grab u=break their hold and push them back or step back to create distance and state calmly that you just want to go to class or whatever and begin leaving the other way and let them decide if it's worth continuing

They hit you=a quick shot back to a vulnerable area, you'd be surprised how it takes the wind out of someone's sails when you knock the wind out of them or smack them in the nuts. Then re state your desire not to fight and attempt another exit the other way.

If they pursue it further after that then yeah, hurt them until they no longer want to fight and leave. If you don't act like a punk kid and beak them after and just walk away like the martial artist you are you'll get more respect than if you try to act like a tough guy, the school will more likely be on your side after that as well. Also don't brag about it after, everyone else will brag you up anyways...its school.

 

[Buka]

Regarding the law and all that, I think that involving the police in schools is not always the best policy.

So true.

 

[Paul_D]

They grab u

They hit you

Or better still, control the distance so they don't get close enough to do either of these things. In my experience once you do that, they realise you are not the victim they thought you were, so they move on. Bullies want a victim to beat on, not someone who will fight back as that means they could get hit, and they don't want that.

Also physically taking control of the distance is something they have not encountered before, and it throws them off guard. They are used to the people they have selected as victims either trying to apologies, or getting aggressive back in an attempt to put them off. Suddenly they are now confronted with a situation they are not used to and it can throw them off and they don't know how to react.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Or better still, control the distance so they don't get close enough to do either of these things. In my experience once you do that, they realise you are not the victim they thought you were, so they move on. Bullies want a victim to beat on, not someone who will fight back as that means they could get hit, and they don't want that.

Also physically taking control of the distance is something they have not encountered before, and it throws them off guard. They are used to the people they have selected as victims either trying to apologies, or getting aggressive back in an attempt to put them off. Suddenly they are now confronted with a situation they are not used to and it can throw them off and they don't know how to react.

Controlling the distance wouldn't have worked with most of the bullies at my high school. They had friends, and were going to put their hands on you. Your choices were submit or defend. Those backing away simply hadn't made that decision yet.

 

[Paul_D]

Controlling the distance wouldn't have worked with most of the bullies at my high school.

No method works 100% of the time, it's just another option.

 

[JowGaWolf]

What worked for me in school was that I learned how to fight (through martial arts) I sparred against people who were bigger and older than me and as a result I got used to the feeling of that and so I wasn't intimated by bigger and older students.

Through that I learn how to "be more than what people want to deal with." My game plan was always prey on the confidence of the bully and to make him doubt that he actually had the ability to easily beat me up or intimidate me. The first rule of this is to be calm with a lack of emotion for the situation. Bullies expect their victim to be scared or get hot headed. They don't know what to do with someone who is calm and emotionless. If the bully told me that he would beat me up then I would calmly reply in an emotionless manner "maybe you will maybe you won't" This creates an assumption that I don't care about the outcome because at this point I'm emotionless. Bullies and people in general try to read a situation by the emotions and facial expressions that we give in response to what they are saying. Think of emotionless as a blank poker face that hides a person's true intent or true fears.

Here's what has happened at this stage.
1. I haven't shown fear, anger, or any sign that I'm intimidated by what is before me.
2. I haven't given any clues on my ability or lack of them
3. I haven't backed down and I haven't really "stood up" in a flashy way.
4. I have presented the bully with uncertainty about his success of winning and my success of defending
5. I haven't escalated the situation because my responses are emotionless which doesn't fuel my opponents action
6. My lack of action gives him the option to back out of the conflict and save face. So he can back out and still look tough even if he calls me a name before backing out.
7. My lack of action clearly highlights who the aggressor is, which comes in handy for high-lighting "who started the confrontation"

Here's what I'm doing when I'm in emotionless response mode.
1. I'm analyzing the guy in front, working on a plan of where I should attack if needed.
2. I'm preparing myself mentally for what may turn out to be a physical fight.
3. I'm analyzing the crowd around us if any. Trying to identify any other threats that I may need to be aware of
4. I'm positioning myself and my footing to put me in the best possible position if the person decides to attack me. This could be either keeping my distance or moving to the left or right of the bullies center. This means that he has to make bigger motions to get to me which will warn me of his attack.

Overall while my bully is talking smack, I'm trying to position myself in the best possible position to win the fight. But I would only do this if you know how to fight. For the most part bullies will stop if they think it's going to be too much trouble to fight you. But sometimes you just have to throw fists, so don't do this as a bluff for a guaranteed conflict ending strategy. If the fight still happens then you would have played enough of a mental game on your bully to have a better advantage once the fight starts.

 

[Steve]

Controlling the distance wouldn't have worked with most of the bullies at my high school. They had friends, and were going to put their hands on you. Your choices were submit or defend. Those backing away simply hadn't made that decision yet.

Thinking back to my high school, I don't recall there being any bullies. I can think of some guys I thought were jerks, but the imminent threat was from gang members, and that was particularly true if you were a white, dope smoking, class skipping hooligan like me who was seldom where he was supposed to be. But I did look pretty tough in my Iron Maiden shirt and parachute pants.

 

[Steve]

What worked for me in school was that I learned how to fight (through martial arts) I sparred against people who were bigger and older than me and as a result I got used to the feeling of that and so I wasn't intimated by bigger and older students.

Through that I learn how to "be more than what people want to deal with." My game plan was always prey on the confidence of the bully and to make him doubt that he actually had the ability to easily beat me up or intimidate me. The first rule of this is to be calm with a lack of emotion for the situation. Bullies expect their victim to be scared or get hot headed. They don't know what to do with someone who is calm and emotionless. If the bully told me that he would beat me up then I would calmly reply in an emotionless manner "maybe you will maybe you won't" This creates an assumption that I don't care about the outcome because at this point I'm emotionless. Bullies and people in general try to read a situation by the emotions and facial expressions that we give in response to what they are saying. Think of emotionless as a blank poker face that hides a person's true intent or true fears.

Here's what has happened at this stage.
1. I haven't shown fear, anger, or any sign that I'm intimidated by what is before me.
2. I haven't given any clues on my ability or lack of them
3. I haven't backed down and I haven't really "stood up" in a flashy way.
4. I have presented the bully with uncertainty about his success of winning and my success of defending
5. I haven't escalated the situation because my responses are emotionless which doesn't fuel my opponents action
6. My lack of action gives him the option to back out of the conflict and save face. So he can back out and still look tough even if he calls me a name before backing out.
7. My lack of action clearly highlights who the aggressor is, which comes in handy for high-lighting "who started the confrontation"

Here's what I'm doing when I'm in emotionless response mode.
1. I'm analyzing the guy in front, working on a plan of where I should attack if needed.
2. I'm preparing myself mentally for what may turn out to be a physical fight.
3. I'm analyzing the crowd around us if any. Trying to identify any other threats that I may need to be aware of
4. I'm positioning myself and my footing to put me in the best possible position if the person decides to attack me. This could be either keeping my distance or moving to the left or right of the bullies center. This means that he has to make bigger motions to get to me which will warn me of his attack.

Overall while my bully is talking smack, I'm trying to position myself in the best possible position to win the fight. But I would only do this if you know how to fight. For the most part bullies will stop if they think it's going to be too much trouble to fight you. But sometimes you just have to throw fists, so don't do this as a bluff for a guaranteed conflict ending strategy. If the fight still happens then you would have played enough of a mental game on your bully to have a better advantage once the fight starts.

Staying calm is a big deal. I always did the same thing, but I didn't try to stay emotionless. I tried not to change a thing.

I would also initiate the contact if I thought there might be trouble. For example, if I thought someone was sizing me up, I'd go up and ask him for a smoke, talk to him for a minute, thank him and then leave. It was my way of saying, "Hey, I know you're trying to figure out if I have anything worth stealing. I don't." Worked almost every time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

But I did look pretty tough in my Iron Maiden shirt and parachute pants.

Age alert lol. Good thing you used that t-shirt and those pants back then.. Not sure they would have the same effect now. Parachute pants = awesome time travel.

 

[Steve]

Age alert lol. Good thing you used that t-shirt and those pants back then.. Not sure they would have the same effect now. Parachute pants = awesome time travel.

The number of zippers you had on your clothes back then held a direct correlation to how badass you were. My parachute pants had about 10 zippers.

 

[Transk53]

Public schools in the UK are those really expensive schools like Eton, Harrow and Rugby which have been going for centuries with pupils from various aristocracies and royalty etc ( it needs more than money to get you into these places) so it's unlikely you would get expelled for fighting, you might get suspended but as boarding schools it's more likely you'd get some other punishment.
In our other schools, who knows, each one is different with different rules.

In my first boarding school, a minor scrap would involve being put in a room. The pair would have to make up until they could leave. Serious stuff, and not that I can remember an typical instance these days, I do know you were sent home. And for a few of us who didn't like being at home, that threat was a massive deterrent.

So in those days, a handshake really was the best way to disfuse tension between pupils. I wondered a few years later why the teachers allowed us to play hockey lol.

 

[Transk53]

Self-defence is self-defence. In schools and out the law is the same.

The difference is there is more one entity asking for an explanation. You just need to articulate your behaviour. If you used minimum (or reasonable) force... bla bla bla... and you articulate it well, you have all on your side. They cannot punish you!

The problem is the other guy(s) that probably will look for revenge...

If I am reading this right, I have to agree. In my boarding schools, the second being more of a naughty lad school, what you say is very realistic. At least in my personal experience, I am not saying for others here.

Yeah. Goading, quick digs and such like, could always be conveyed as being playful. So yeah, the teachers couldn't say much more than take it outside. Yes that sounds really stupid, but the teachers I guess now, involved reverse psychology. However, at my second school, fights would involve having severe restrictions on pupils. One for me involved being confined to being inside the school.

So as such, there was a boarders rule that any enmity that would result in a fight, our behaviour around the teachers was all geared towards the idea that at dorm time, it was ding dong time. Got to say though, my schools were not like the poncy Harrows and Etons etc, so peasants like me have different viewpoints on boarding.

 

[Tez3]

poncy Harrows and Etons etc, so peasants like me have different viewpoints on boarding.

LOL, the rules are different at them which of course carries over to when they are grown up and in the government!
I know a lot of people who sent their children to boarding school because the children preferred it to moving around all the time which military families do and there's huge discounts for military families which helps. I don't know any though that could afford or would want to send them to public schools. I have known a few army officers who went through prep school ( boarding) public school then Oxbridge. They tend to have funny ideas about 'matron', I always thought that's why so many Tory men loved Maggie Thatcher, she reminded them of matron.

 

[Transk53]

LOL, the rules are different at them which of course carries over to when they are grown up and in the government!
I know a lot of people who sent their children to boarding school because the children preferred it to moving around all the time which military families do and there's huge discounts for military families which helps. I don't know any though that could afford or would want to send them to public schools. I have known a few army officers who went through prep school ( boarding) public school then Oxbridge. They tend to have funny ideas about 'matron', I always thought that's why so many Tory men loved Maggie Thatcher, she reminded them of matron.

Matron, oh hell you just brought back a memory lol. Yeah, at my first, the Matron was a pretty much a witch

 

[drop bear]

My position on this is if the other person gets physical first you can respond in kind and with equal intensity, however in school it usually starts with people beaking each other and just don't engage them in that, ignore them, fully, like they don't exist because at this moment they are proving they are not worth the few seconds it would take to beat them up. If that fails then...

They grab u=break their hold and push them back or step back to create distance and state calmly that you just want to go to class or whatever and begin leaving the other way and let them decide if it's worth continuing

They hit you=a quick shot back to a vulnerable area, you'd be surprised how it takes the wind out of someone's sails when you knock the wind out of them or smack them in the nuts. Then re state your desire not to fight and attempt another exit the other way.

If they pursue it further after that then yeah, hurt them until they no longer want to fight and leave. If you don't act like a punk kid and beak them after and just walk away like the martial artist you are you'll get more respect than if you try to act like a tough guy, the school will more likely be on your side after that as well. Also don't brag about it after, everyone else will brag you up anyways...its school.

See my view on that is if you are trapped in there with them an they are going out of their way to be a tool. You don't have to take that day in. Day out. Even if it is verbal.

That is why the ***** slap was invented. Nail them. Show that their actions have consequences. Move on.

Then take your suspension like a man.

If you wanted to go completely nuts. Get a notebook and record all the passive aggressive bullying you have endured. Still dlap the guy and still take the suspension like a man.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Show that their actions have consequences.

This is what's lacking in the U.S. now. The understanding that actions have consequences. If you gotta go out, then go out with style lol

Or you can hit em up like this

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thinking back to my high school, I don't recall there being any bullies. I can think of some guys I thought were jerks, but the imminent threat was from gang members, and that was particularly true if you were a white, dope smoking, class skipping hooligan like me who was seldom where he was supposed to be. But I did look pretty tough in my Iron Maiden shirt and parachute pants.

We were lacking in gangs. The bullies came in almost gang-like groups (except that one of the "gangs" was just entitled preppie kids who thought it was fun to grab guys (4 people to grab them) and ram their crotches into poles. It happened often enough it had it's own term: "Dude, did you see John got 'poled' at lunch?"