Does disagreeing make you a bad student?

[Azulx]

Another thing I disagree on, d I have just come to accept it just isn't that big of a deal, is him using Japanese terminology in a Korean Art. He began training Tae Kwon Do the 1970's under Korean Karate label. Apparently they used nothing, but Japanese terminology and that is what he originally learned. Then in the early 2000's he became a member of the USTA/ITA where I know they used Korean terminology. Then in 2013 He started teaching at a Japanese dojo, specializing in Kenjutsu. He started private teaching under the Tae Kwon Do/ Korean Karate label, since it was Japanese school he went back to the Japanese terminology. Now that we are no longer affiliated with the Japanese school he still uses the Japanese terminology and sometimes I cringe when he says Kata, or someone calls him sensei.

 

[ShawnP]

I am an Assistant Instructor at our school. We often have instructor meetings. We have one head Instructor, and Instructor, and two Assistant Instructors. What I tend to disagree on is testing people early. We are supposed to have a strict system where someone isn't considered to test unless they meet a minimum criteria of hours. For this specific case it was a white belt. The White Belt minimum is 16 hours in three months. This student had 15 hours in four months. Our Head Instructor wanted to test him anyway, because he is our only white belt at the moment, and he rather have all yellow belts and above, because we do not allow white belts to spar. I as well as the other instructors disagreed with testing this student early, and our Head Instructor wasn't too happy.

The reason why I was so reluctant to agree, was because we had just made an exception for three students to test early a week prior , and I didn't want to create an atmosphere were we continue to make exceptions.

My Instructor doesn't ask for my opinion publicly. It is always at instructor meetings, and I often give an opinion that is different than his. So although sometimes I feel his ego, gets big. He doesn't ask for it to be fueled in front of all the students.

Side Note: I think a big reason why I'm not so quick to blindly agree with my instructor, is because I knew him before he was my instructor. So I see him as regular Joe not "Master Joe." He also had a huge falling out with his Head Instructor and bashes him frequently so I feel that these things sometimes come back full circle.

Well i will say this, it is o k for you to disagree and this does not make you a bad student/instructor/person by any means, but IF he is the head instructor and this is HIS business to run, I'm thinking he may have an alternate agenda by bringing the white belt up to yellow( meaning he wants the test money) or he just might want to even up the ranks within the school (probably, if not just, for sparring) i honestly don't see the big deal in bringing the white belt up a month early and 1 hour sooner if it is just the one white belt, and if it is his business wouldn't the final say be his? i think it was very professional of him to NOT air his differences in front of the students and some type of hierarchy stayed intact, usually when you're friends with someone and go into business (so to speak) with them it causes problems and is my belief that everyone has their own agenda. Fine you have your ways and i say stick by your decision to disagree with him, i just hope that you and he can separate your friendship with business and leave it at that.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Another thing I disagree on, d I have just come to accept it just isn't that big of a deal, is him using Japanese terminology in a Korean Art. He began training Tae Kwon Do the 1970's under Korean Karate label. Apparently they used nothing, but Japanese terminology and that is what he originally learned. Then in the early 2000's he became a member of the USTA/ITA where I know they used Korean terminology. Then in 2013 He started teaching at a Japanese dojo, specializing in Kenjutsu. He started private teaching under the Tae Kwon Do/ Korean Karate label, since it was Japanese school he went back to the Japanese terminology. Now that we are no longer affiliated with the Japanese school he still uses the Japanese terminology and sometimes I cringe when he says Kata, or someone calls him sensei.

Welcome to America.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The truth is, this guy is doing what he wants, and you are used to another culture. There is an old saying, "You can never go home", but you can obviously move closer. Is the art itself sound? That would be my main concern, but that is the culture I come from.

 

[Buka]

I am an Assistant Instructor at our school. We often have instructor meetings. We have one head Instructor, and Instructor, and two Assistant Instructors. What I tend to disagree on is testing people early. We are supposed to have a strict system where someone isn't considered to test unless they meet a minimum criteria of hours. For this specific case it was a white belt. The White Belt minimum is 16 hours in three months. This student had 15 hours in four months. Our Head Instructor wanted to test him anyway, because he is our only white belt at the moment, and he rather have all yellow belts and above, because we do not allow white belts to spar. I as well as the other instructors disagreed with testing this student early, and our Head Instructor wasn't too happy.

The reason why I was so reluctant to agree, was because we had just made an exception for three students to test early a week prior , and I didn't want to create an atmosphere were we continue to make exceptions.



Not everything is that black and white. Not everything is " If you love it so much why don't you marry it?" I train with my instructor because I enjoy training. I don't agree with my mom and dad all the time, and I'm not planning on looking for new ones either.



My Instructor doesn't ask for my opinion publicly. It is always at instructor meetings, and I often give an opinion that is different than his. So although sometimes I feel his ego, gets big. He doesn't ask for it to be fueled in front of all the students.



No I vary rarely disagree with how my instructor teaches application of techniques. I have only ever had one issue with application. We use the Ch'ang Hon forms, but for some reason my instructor is against use transitioning counter clockwise, which is how the forms are originally done. His reasoning: Clockwise is the fastest way to strike an opponent. I think that is a silly reason, but I do not argue.



My instructor does say some Master Ken like statements. especially about boxing and grappling arts, but he is just one of those guys that believes his art has all the answers.


Side Note: I think a big reason why I'm not so quick to blindly agree with my instructor, is because I knew him before he was my instructor. So I see him as regular Joe not "Master Joe." He also had a huge falling out with his Head Instructor and bashes him frequently so I feel that these things sometimes come back full circle.

I feel for you, Azulx, I went through something similar back in the day.

The "Master Ken" statements and the bashing of his old Instructor are warning flags IMO. As are making test requirements and then not honoring them for convenience sake.
But, to answer the title of your thread, does it make you a bad student - no, not at all.

 

[Ironbear24]

It sounds like this guy sucks.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Has there ever been a situation where your instructor asked for your opinion and it didn't coincide at all with your instructor's? My instructor asks me for what I think about several different things relating Tae Kwon Do, and I don't think we agree on too much. I read about and see that people are so loyal to their instructor, that no matter what he/she may say, they will agree. Is it wrong to not want to blinded agree like I'm in some type of cult?

Disagreeing doesn't make you a bad student but it can definitely slow down your learning process. I don't disagree with my Sifu, but that doesn't mean I don't have a different perspective about certain things. When you think different than your Sifu then view is more as a different perspective and not so much as a disagreement.

Some things are going to be legitimate disagreements, most are just different perspectives. By thinking of something as a disagreement, you'll run the risk of getting that feeling that you have to "go against" what was said.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I disagree that the guy sucks. I can understand this instance with the white belt, if he wants him to be able to spar and otherwise he won't be able to until the next testing. I would suggest giving him an extra private lesson or something to make up that hour though.
I've had similar disagreements when I was an instructor, basically I learned that sometimes my sense took what I said in consideration other times he didn't. He was headstrong so I had to accept it...it sucks and takes a while to accept but I didn't really have a choice. As for using appropriate terminology, I am used to mixing Japanese chinese and American terms all the time while talking about MA so can't really comment

 

[WaterGal]

I am an Assistant Instructor at our school. We often have instructor meetings. We have one head Instructor, and Instructor, and two Assistant Instructors. What I tend to disagree on is testing people early. We are supposed to have a strict system where someone isn't considered to test unless they meet a minimum criteria of hours. For this specific case it was a white belt. The White Belt minimum is 16 hours in three months. This student had 15 hours in four months. Our Head Instructor wanted to test him anyway, because he is our only white belt at the moment, and he rather have all yellow belts and above, because we do not allow white belts to spar. I as well as the other instructors disagreed with testing this student early, and our Head Instructor wasn't too happy.

The reason why I was so reluctant to agree, was because we had just made an exception for three students to test early a week prior , and I didn't want to create an atmosphere were we continue to make exceptions.

This seems like a very reasonable disagreement that was handled maturely. So no, it does not make you a bad student at all. If you called him out in the middle of a class saying "why are you promoting Bob, when he's only had 15 hours of class??", or you went around badmouthing his decision to the students, that would be bad. But a private conversation off the mat, where he asks for your opinion about a decision and you say you don't agree with it? There's nothing wrong with that at all.

Now, that doesn't mean he's obliged to change his mind. It's his school and he can promote or not promote whoever he likes, and the responsibility for the consequences (good or bad) are on him. He may feel that, even if the student doesn't have "enough" hours, that they've learned enough to pass the test, or he may feel like this student is sort of losing focus and the prospect of a test will push them to get back into class more, or maybe he has some other reason. But there's nothing wrong with telling him that you have concerns and don't think it's a great idea, as long as you do it in a mature way and respect that it's ultimately his decision to make.

 

[Zeny]

I think the decision on when to test a particular student is the head instructor's perogative. Who made those rules anyway?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I think the decision on when to test a particular student is the head instructor's perogative. Who made those rules anyway?

Likely an organizational thing. Everyone in the organization is supposed to follow certain standards.

 

[Azulx]

The "Master Ken" statements and the bashing of his old Instructor are warning flags IMO. As are making test requirements and then not honoring them for convenience sake.
But, to answer the title of your thread, does it make you a bad student - no, not at all.

In fairness to him, he only goes into "Master Ken" mode, if you will, if he feels that a person from a different martial art comes into our club and acts superior to us. As far as the test requirement thing, he always advocates, that rules have exceptions. Except I sometimes feel that the exceptions are done a tad bit too often. He is very resentful of his previous instructor, I asked him why, because when I first began training with him , he frequently bashed his instructor and the ITA ( his former organization.) Long story short, He told me, that he became one of the Head Instructors at the school and his Master instructor was waving his and his children's training fees. Along with that he was making an extra $300 a month bonus. % months passed and his Master Instructor never paid him. After speaking to lawyer and threatening to sue his Instructor, he was finally paid, and left the ITA very sour. So, in his defense I would be pretty aggravated too, if the was scenario. Although there is always two sides to a story, I will never know his Master Instructor's side.

It sounds like this guy sucks.

I wouldn't say he sucks, because that would be harsh. I do say , that he has flaws, as do every instructor. Even my idol General Choi, rest in peace, had flaws. After all everyone is only human.

Disagreeing doesn't make you a bad student but it can definitely slow down your learning process. I don't disagree with my Sifu, but that doesn't mean I don't have a different perspective about certain things. When you think different than your Sifu then view is more as a different perspective and not so much as a disagreement.

Some things are going to be legitimate disagreements, most are just different perspectives. By thinking of something as a disagreement, you'll run the risk of getting that feeling that you have to "go against" what was said.

This is a very good way of putting. I didn't want to see my beliefs as disagreements, and I couldn't think of a word that fit what I was feeling. Perspective, is a much better word. Although I didn't see what he was seeing, no matter what decision he made I would have respected it and not been mad. This is due to me being conscious that I may not see the situation the same as my head instructor, but that it isn't about what's right an wrong, it's just two different perspectives that don't coincide.

I think the decision on when to test a particular student is the head instructor's perogative. Who made those rules anyway?

If he owned the school yes, it would be his right to do whatever he wants. This is not the case. We are affiliated with a university , and we are recognized as a university club sport. Since that is the case , the university expects the organization to be ran by students( Students enrolled in the university.) So like any organization there is an executive board comprised of a President, Vice-President, and Treasurer. These three officers are his instructors. I am one of them. We technically have the power to remove him as our Head Instructor, which we would never do unless he did something severely unethical. So despite how hard headed he may be we try to all come to some type of agreement, almost like checks and balances. He can get pissed off an not test us or something like that, but we could somehow all get pissed off and find a new instructor.

 

[Zeny]

I am pretty laid back by nature, and do not care to be involved in the management of any association or club. Chief reason is that if i want to put in time and effort in doing something, i expect to get paid and/or derive personal satisfaction out of it. I derive personal satisfaction in touching hands (and making someone fly) but not attending meetings or making sure everyone follows the rules. That's just my personal perspective.

This post is meant to show that there are people with very different mindsets out there, and sometimes, you need to give and take to be able to get along.

Anyway i think the original question is whether it makes you a bad student for disagreeing with your instructor. But i think the actual situation is something like whether as committee members you can disagree with your president. This is a much simpler question to answer - if you care enough about the issue, put it to a vote, and respect the outcome if it goes against your wishes. A president's vote also counts as one vote, although in the event of a tie they are usually given the right to make a casting vote.

 

[Azulx]

I am pretty laid back by nature, and do not care to be involved in the management of any association or club. Chief reason is that if i want to put in time and effort in doing something, i expect to get paid and/or derive personal satisfaction out of it. I derive personal satisfaction in touching hands (and making someone fly) but not attending meetings or making sure everyone follows the rules. That's just my personal perspective.

Our instructor does get paid, and I am sure he gets some type of personal satisfaction, otherwise he wouldn't be doing it.

 

[Azulx]

Anyway i think the original question is whether it makes you a bad student for disagreeing with your instructor. But i think the actual situation is something like whether as committee members you can disagree with your president. This is a much simpler question to answer - if you care enough about the issue, put it to a vote, and respect the outcome if it goes against your wishes. A president's vote also counts as one vote, although in the event of a tie they are usually given the right to make a casting vote.

We don't really put things up for vote. The whole vote thing may have worked for this white belt instance, but it's not like we vote on everyone who is eligible to test. Our instructor asks for feedback, opinions etc. If the majority of us don't like an idea. He most likely won't do it, but it's not like because we all don't agree he can't do something. If he absolutely wanted to he could test this white belt next class, we can't stop him. I was just stating that I don't think he would do that because he needs the help of his instructors and senior students, and he wouldn't want to start conflict with them over something that isn't an earth shattering big deal. If he was to start playing the I'm the Head Instructor card and doing things that would make people upset and uncomfortable, then the club wouldn't really succeed. In this instance we have the opportunity to find a new instructor and save the club. If he was in his own business and started making everyone mad, he would just run out of students and go out of business. So no matter whether the school is his or not he still has a duty to be ethical, and not create conflict between students and himself.

 

[Buka]

Is the instructor in question a student at the college? Are you?

 

[Azulx]

Is the instructor in question a student at the college? Are you?

The instructor is not, but I am.

 

[Tez3]

The White Belt minimum is 16 hours in three months. This student had 15 hours in four months.

That's somewhat confusing, the student is just one hour short of the time usual for grading but has been coming for a month longer?

 

[drop bear]

Seems very rulesy.

Disagree but it is his call. If he agrees with you argument cool. If he disagrees. Let it go.

Then go punch each other in the face.

 

[Buka]

My advice - regardless of circumstances, just keep training, grow and learn everything you can. As responsible as you sound as an assistant instructor, remember, your first and foremost goal is that of a student. Compartmentalize any of the politics of what's being done within your class structure and suck everything up like a sponge.

Go getum, kiddo.