Does disagreeing make you a bad student?

[Gerry Seymour]

Has there ever been a situation where your instructor asked for your opinion and it didn't coincide at all with your instructor's? My instructor asks me for what I think about several different things relating Tae Kwon Do, and I don't think we agree on too much. I read about and see that people are so loyal to their instructor, that no matter what he/she may say, they will agree. Is it wrong to not want to blinded agree like I'm in some type of cult?

Here are my thoughts, in no particular order...

1) The disagreements must be only on minor matters. If you disagree with major principles of value, you have the wrong instructor, and you'll never be able to learn as much from them as someone with whom you share values. For instance, the third tenet of my style is that martial arts should develop the whole person, because the stress of life in general is much more dangerous (on average) than an unlikely attack. If a student walks in my door who doesn't want to hear about things like how to do better at work, how to decrease stress, etc., they need to find another instructor. Nothing against them, I'm just not the right instructor for them.

2) If you ever find yourself agreeing entirely, it's time to get a new instructor. You're not being inquisitive enough, and will start to think they're infallible. You don't necessarily need to lose the old instructor, but you need some new input to help you see their flaws.

3) I have a student who often questions things in front of other students ("Why wouldn't you just _____??"). He immediately apologizes and says he means no disrespect. I keep telling him I _want_ his questions, and that him questioning me shows that he respects my integrity and believes there's a good reason for my choices and what I teach. Every now and then, my lack of knowledge or a weak moment in my technique is embarrassing. Life is like that, and I accepted that when I became an instructor. I am not even afraid of someone being better than me - there are probably some of those here. As long as the student is questioning to learn, I encourage the questions. As soon as the questions start to get combative, it's time to talk.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am an Assistant Instructor at our school. We often have instructor meetings. We have one head Instructor, and Instructor, and two Assistant Instructors. What I tend to disagree on is testing people early. We are supposed to have a strict system where someone isn't considered to test unless they meet a minimum criteria of hours. For this specific case it was a white belt. The White Belt minimum is 16 hours in three months. This student had 15 hours in four months. Our Head Instructor wanted to test him anyway, because he is our only white belt at the moment, and he rather have all yellow belts and above, because we do not allow white belts to spar. I as well as the other instructors disagreed with testing this student early, and our Head Instructor wasn't too happy.

The reason why I was so reluctant to agree, was because we had just made an exception for three students to test early a week prior , and I didn't want to create an atmosphere were we continue to make exceptions.



Not everything is that black and white. Not everything is " If you love it so much why don't you marry it?" I train with my instructor because I enjoy training. I don't agree with my mom and dad all the time, and I'm not planning on looking for new ones either.



My Instructor doesn't ask for my opinion publicly. It is always at instructor meetings, and I often give an opinion that is different than his. So although sometimes I feel his ego, gets big. He doesn't ask for it to be fueled in front of all the students.



No I vary rarely disagree with how my instructor teaches application of techniques. I have only ever had one issue with application. We use the Ch'ang Hon forms, but for some reason my instructor is against use transitioning counter clockwise, which is how the forms are originally done. His reasoning: Clockwise is the fastest way to strike an opponent. I think that is a silly reason, but I do not argue.



My instructor does say some Master Ken like statements. especially about boxing and grappling arts, but he is just one of those guys that believes his art has all the answers.


Side Note: I think a big reason why I'm not so quick to blindly agree with my instructor, is because I knew him before he was my instructor. So I see him as regular Joe not "Master Joe." He also had a huge falling out with his Head Instructor and bashes him frequently so I feel that these things sometimes come back full circle.

I see some things here that I'd consider possible red flags, but only possible ones. I see a bunch of stuff that I'd want as a chief instructor, including other instructors willing to challenge my decisions (not in front of students), to make me think about my reasons. I've been known to change my mind, given a good counter argument.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Another thing I disagree on, d I have just come to accept it just isn't that big of a deal, is him using Japanese terminology in a Korean Art. He began training Tae Kwon Do the 1970's under Korean Karate label. Apparently they used nothing, but Japanese terminology and that is what he originally learned. Then in the early 2000's he became a member of the USTA/ITA where I know they used Korean terminology. Then in 2013 He started teaching at a Japanese dojo, specializing in Kenjutsu. He started private teaching under the Tae Kwon Do/ Korean Karate label, since it was Japanese school he went back to the Japanese terminology. Now that we are no longer affiliated with the Japanese school he still uses the Japanese terminology and sometimes I cringe when he says Kata, or someone calls him sensei.

Those sorts of things can be cringe-worthy, but don't really matter much. In our art, we don't use a lot of Japanese. When Richard Bowe was training in Chitose, the Japanese used Japanese, unsurprisingly, because that was what they spoke. Interestingly, they asked him to teach them English names for the techniques, so they could teach Americans (GI's stationed there after WWII). To this day, we choose to use the local language - English for most of our instructors. I cringe when I hear mispronunciations (including the actual name of the art), but if the students understand what the instructor is saying, then who does it hurt?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's somewhat confusing, the student is just one hour short of the time usual for grading but has been coming for a month longer?

Someone is missing classes. If they aren't practicing a lot outside class, I'd likely hold them back even longer. But then, in our style, the rank is a signal of what techniques you can do to them, so maybe it matters more.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We don't really put things up for vote. The whole vote thing may have worked for this white belt instance, but it's not like we vote on everyone who is eligible to test. Our instructor asks for feedback, opinions etc. If the majority of us don't like an idea. He most likely won't do it, but it's not like because we all don't agree he can't do something. If he absolutely wanted to he could test this white belt next class, we can't stop him. I was just stating that I don't think he would do that because he needs the help of his instructors and senior students, and he wouldn't want to start conflict with them over something that isn't an earth shattering big deal. If he was to start playing the I'm the Head Instructor card and doing things that would make people upset and uncomfortable, then the club wouldn't really succeed. In this instance we have the opportunity to find a new instructor and save the club. If he was in his own business and started making everyone mad, he would just run out of students and go out of business. So no matter whether the school is his or not he still has a duty to be ethical, and not create conflict between students and himself.

That's how real leadership works. You empower others by ceding some of your own power to them. It has to be voluntary (like the fact that your instructor doesn't have to follow the group's recommendation) to be effective.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Disagreeing doesn't make you a bad student but it can definitely slow down your learning process. I don't disagree with my Sifu, but that doesn't mean I don't have a different perspective about certain things. When you think different than your Sifu then view is more as a different perspective and not so much as a disagreement.

Some things are going to be legitimate disagreements, most are just different perspectives. By thinking of something as a disagreement, you'll run the risk of getting that feeling that you have to "go against" what was said.

It sounds like you and I have different definitions of "disagree". When you say "different perspective", I think you're referring to what I'd call an "unimportant disagreement". For instance, my primary instructor and I disagree about the first punch to teach. When I taught at his school, I taught his way, because I felt it was an unimportant disagreement. Now that I have my own school, I teach what I think is a bit more effective.

In cases like this, it's not so much "right or wrong" as "good and better", with the latter not being values-based. So, if we adopt your terms (and if I've understood you well), I think you and I agree pretty closely on this.

 

[Azulx]

I see some things here that I'd consider possible red flags, but only possible ones. I see a bunch of stuff that I'd want as a chief instructor, including other instructors willing to challenge my decisions (not in front of students), to make me think about my reasons. I've been known to change my mind, given a good counter argument.

Could you elaborate on the potential red flags you see?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Could you elaborate on the potential red flags you see?

When a leader gets upset when the people he asks for advice agree with him, that's a problem. Now, if it's a rare reaction, then it's a pretty small problem. If it happens a lot, there's a bigger problem, and it's either too much ego, poor communication of the leader's vision, or a mismatch of goals and perspectives between the leader and the advisors.

The other was the "Master Ken-like statements" about other arts. Those make me cringe. Some instructors do it entirely out of ignorance (e.g., I've heard instructors call feather falls too dangerous for street use, compared to Judo falls - I've used both, and anyone who says that is completely unaware of what a feather fall actually is), and this can lead to a dangerous bit of misinformation for students at times. Some say it out of ego, and that's arguably the more dangerous, since they become blind to the weaknesses of their own art (and all arts have them). Some just say it because they're used to defending their school to prospective students, and that's really not much of a problem, except that they need to guard their own mindset.

So, some potential red flags. Or they might be nothing. I know, that's terribly helpful.

 

[Azulx]

When a leader gets upset when the people he asks for advice agree with him, that's a problem. Now, if it's a rare reaction, then it's a pretty small problem. If it happens a lot, there's a bigger problem, and it's either too much ego, poor communication of the leader's vision, or a mismatch of goals and perspectives between the leader and the advisors.

The other was the "Master Ken-like statements" about other arts. Those make me cringe. Some instructors do it entirely out of ignorance (e.g., I've heard instructors call feather falls too dangerous for street use, compared to Judo falls - I've used both, and anyone who says that is completely unaware of what a feather fall actually is), and this can lead to a dangerous bit of misinformation for students at times. Some say it out of ego, and that's arguably the more dangerous, since they become blind to the weaknesses of their own art (and all arts have them). Some just say it because they're used to defending their school to prospective students, and that's really not much of a problem, except that they need to guard their own mindset.

So, some potential red flags. Or they might be nothing. I know, that's terribly helpful.

You I see I stated this earlier in the forum, I have a personal relationship with the Head Instructor and one of the other instructors. i knew them before I even started training with them. So we don't always have a student teacher relationship. I guess sometimes we forget to flip the switch and we just see each other as how we are out of class. I mean I was drinking a Corona with my Head instructor in his living room like 3 days ago lol (I'm 22, nothing illegal going on). So if he kind of acts funny when I don't right away agree with him, its probably due to him seeing me as me and not as his student. I also stated that he old me straight up that he respect my opinion. There are people who I am close friends with who's opinions don't always match mine. Sometimes taht can be disappointing at first, but after a day or two I understand that I respect their opinion, and it won't always match mine.

As for the Master Ken thing, I think I may have exaggerated, but when a student comes in from a different art/style and starts to act like his previous style is superior, I have heard some Master Ken like stuff. For example, we had a guy with a boxing background come in , and talk as if he was going to have an easy time sparring, because TKD doesn't really use hands. My instructor said , you actually have to get close to us first, you are used to two things coming at you, now you have FOUR. I mean it may not be super Master Ken, but it sounded like it to me lol.

 

[Ironbear24]

I disagree'd with my sifu. He said I am great. I think I am awesome.

 

[Azulx]

I disagree'd with my sifu. He said I am great. I think I am awesome.

You are awesome! How's the 360 and 540 kick coming along?

 

[Ironbear24]

You are awesome! How's the 360 and 540 kick coming along?

They call me the staggering bear .

 

[Hyoho]

It's not wrong but its 'martial arts' A militaristic disciplined environment. To strictly guide a person to do better. Even better than they knew they were capable of. Questioning is a very Western concept. Even now in Japanese education you dont question anything! You listen and take notes. There are frequent examinations to check if you have absorbed what you were told. We all know that out own teachers are not perfect and only human but we 'go with the flow'. The question itself sounds very "Western" to me.

The ones that ask too many questions never seem to last long. Spare a thought for that guy out front that has taken his time and trouble to try and hand on to you what he has been taught by his teacher.

Leave personalities outside the door. Leave 'everything outside and concentrate on practice. Dont so much as even look at the clock!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

It's not wrong but its 'martial arts' A militaristic disciplined environment. To strictly guide a person to do better. Even better than they knew they were capable of. Questioning is a very Western concept. Even now in Japanese education you dont question anything! You listen and take notes. There are frequent examinations to check if you have absorbed what you were told. We all know that out own teachers are not perfect and only human but we 'go with the flow'. The question itself sounds very "Western" to me.

The ones that ask too many questions never seem to last long. Spare a thought for that guy out front that has taken his time and trouble to try and hand on to you what he has been taught by his teacher.

Speaking as a "Western" style instructor, I'm always trying to get my students to ask more questions. I find that the ones who ask the most questions* tend to progress the fastest.

*(Relevant questions, that is. I do have one student with ADD tendencies who sometimes needs to be steered back on topic.)

Leave 'everything outside and concentrate on practice. Dont so much as even look at the clock!

This I can agree with.

 

[Hyoho]

Under normal circumstance I would agree. But with so much repetition required to advance in what some of us do? I do a few international seminars and even then maybe there is too much talk and not enough action. They could all be lying down and out for the count by luch time. Lol, I will say no more.....one of them reads the forum

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm always trying to get my students to ask more questions. I find that the ones who ask the most questions* tend to progress the fastest.

Since we have switched from "disagreeing" to "question asking", IMO, every time that your teacher teaches you one technique, you should always ask him the following questions:

How to

- create opportunity to apply this technique?
- develop/enhance this technique?
- counter this technique?
- counter those counters for this technique?
- ...

Even if you may not ask all those questions in one day, you should at least ask those questions before your teacher starts to teach you other techniques.

 

[JR 137]

Since we have switched from "disagreeing" to "question asking", IMO, every time that your teacher teaches you one technique, you should always ask him the following questions:

How to

- create opportunity to apply this technique?
- develop/enhance this technique?
- counter this technique?
- counter those counters for this technique?
- ...

Even if you may not ask all those questions in one day, you should at least ask those questions before your teacher starts to teach you other techniques.

Being a school teacher, I prefer the teacher ask the students those questions. It stimulates critical thinking. When the teacher explains everything and feeds the students answers, the students stop thinking for themselves. When they stop looking for answers, the stop being able to think critically/independently. As a martial artist, you have to be able to apply what works for you rather than just replicate what your teacher has told you if you want to have any chance of it working when it matters most. The teacher should be there to guide you and steer you in the right direction, not turn you into a "if my opponent does A, my response is B, and if he counters B, my response is C" type. At the beginning ranks, yes it should be like this, but as you gain experience it should be less and less. The best thing a teacher can do is teach you to think for yourself IMO.

 

[Tez3]

Someone is missing classes. If they aren't practicing a lot outside class, I'd likely hold them back even longer. But then, in our style, the rank is a signal of what techniques you can do to them, so maybe it matters more.

However as I said, it was an hours difference and the chief instructor may well know the reason while the assistant instructor doesn't. Some things are told to the chief instructor in confidence and if he says the student is ready to grade even with one hour training less then I wouldn't question it. Missing classes can be for many reasons, often for reasons more important than training. If it were just not bothering to come in then I doubt the chief instructor would have wanted him to grade.

 

[Hyoho]

I have been teaching twice a day Monday to Friday, all day Saturday and Sunday apart from competition. Not much time to talk. All example by action and hard repetition training. Everybody knows what to do and the requirements to be able to do it The only advice given was personal tuition to people that lose. Grading are something they do every so often at certain ages knowing they will pass anyway. The only time off is when a doctor says so.

 

[Tez3]

The only time off is when a doctor says so.

Hardly fair that, we say family life comes first, exams for careers are more important than training which can be caught up at any time. Our students do martial arts because they enjoy it, they want to defend themselves, get fit and all the other usual reasons, they aren't going to be professional martial artists, they have families, lives, careers and they come first. To be so harsh as to only 'allow' them time off when a doctor says so is unrealistic and harmful.