How much time for a beginner to practically use your system?

Jaeimseu

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I hope this won't (but fear it will) degrade into a style versus style contest, but how much time, on average, does it take in your system for a beginner to develop practical skills (reliably doable in a "fight") in your system/style/school? If your school is different from others in your style in this regard, please explain how.


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JR 137

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I was taught how to properly make a fist, punch, and groin kick on my first night (among some other things like a basic fighting stance). Do those count as "practical skills?"

How long it takes to be able to reliably use them (or anything else) outside the dojo is up to the individual. There's some people out there who'll be dojo warriors; they'll be great in the dojo, but will freeze and/or panic at the moment of truth and forget everything they've learned even though they've been training for years or even decades. Then there's people who'll have a seemless transition(for a lack of a better phrase) from the dojo to an actual encounter.

People respond to stress and the whole fight or flight response differently.

The more you train against resisting partners, get hit in practice, and/or hit stuff like a heavy bag with full force combinations, the better your chances, but there's no guarantees. IMO fighting/SD/whatever other semantic labels we put on it is a state of mind. The mentality to control fear and accept pain while keeping at it isn't something that's easily developed for some people or even most people.

Just my opinions, I'm sure many will disagree.
 

HW1

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I hope this won't (but fear it will) degrade into a style versus style contest, but how much time, on average, does it take in your system for a beginner to develop practical skills (reliably doable in a "fight") in your system/style/school? If your school is different from others in your style in this regard, please explain how.


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As you can tell by other people's responses, this can vary depending on the situation, person, and their fight mentality.
But I get what you're trying to ask so I will answer based on what I see from beginners (with no martial arts background) in my particular style. On average, 2-3 months depending on how often they train per week. I have my students do a lot of drills and by that time a couple of the drills would've already been second nature embedded into neuromuscular memory, that they can competently use the techniques instinctively (without thinking about it) to deal with common attacks you see in a fight (jab, cross, haymaker, takedown attempt, etc.) It's the simplest answer without other variables considered. Hope it helps.
 

oaktree

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I hope this won't (but fear it will) degrade into a style versus style contest, but how much time, on average, does it take in your system for a beginner to develop practical skills (reliably doable in a "fight") in your system/style/school? If your school is different from others in your style in this regard, please explain how.


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Considering there is only so much time in a particular lesson. I am going to assume doable meaning can defend anything including weapons. Two answers: First answer is the first time we are learning we are studying application against unarmed, I will then show the application armed. Second answer is how good and how prepared if the attacker does something else that could take longer.

So if we were doing a seminar over 2-3 days and each seminar is 2-4hours long and we cover on day 1 simple defense and offense maybe 3-4 key moves against basic hand strikes and kicks. Day 2 we cover against common weapons of knife and stick 3-4 key moves and Day 3 some basic guard and escapes and counters 3-4 moves then we have a pretty decent guy after 2-3 days. If I am trying to make a doable fighter in such a short time as in the guy saying I need to know this now because there is a guy coming to beat me up in 2 days then a lot of the traditional things and fine motor skill orient things would be thrown out to work on gross motor skills. There is a reason armys teach basic skills because it is effective can teach a large group in a short period of time.
 
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Jaeimseu

Jaeimseu

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As you can tell by other people's responses, this can vary depending on the situation, person, and their fight mentality.
But I get what you're trying to ask so I will answer based on what I see from beginners (with no martial arts background) in my particular style. On average, 2-3 months depending on how often they train per week. I have my students do a lot of drills and by that time a couple of the drills would've already been second nature embedded into neuromuscular memory, that they can competently use the techniques instinctively (without thinking about it) to deal with common attacks you see in a fight (jab, cross, haymaker, takedown attempt, etc.) It's the simplest answer without other variables considered. Hope it helps.
Thanks. You're getting at what I'm interested in discussing. Obviously, there are an infinite number of variables that can affect things, but I'm curious about how long people expect it to take to really be able to use what is being taught.

I actually put the word fight in quotes because I didn't intend it to be taken as a literal street fight. The "fight" could be sparring in class, in the street, or self defense.

What is a reasonable expectation (for you) in terms of time training, for what the students are learning to be honestly usable?

To take it further, how much difference is there between average students: 6 months versus 1 year, 3 months versus 1 month, etc.?
 

HW1

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Thanks. You're getting at what I'm interested in discussing. Obviously, there are an infinite number of variables that can affect things, but I'm curious about how long people expect it to take to really be able to use what is being taught.

I actually put the word fight in quotes because I didn't intend it to be taken as a literal street fight. The "fight" could be sparring in class, in the street, or self defense.

What is a reasonable expectation (for you) in terms of time training, for what the students are learning to be honestly usable?

To take it further, how much difference is there between average students: 6 months versus 1 year, 3 months versus 1 month, etc.?

Reasonable expectation: At least 6 months.
Speculated differences (time in training):
1 Month: Still a bit clumsy, overthinking, getting into a routine
3 Months: Basic movements appears in reflex during training/sparring. Might not know what to do next after a successful execution of a technique ("Whoa, I did that?! Now what?)
6 Months: Should have enough tools under their belt to hold their own, enough to create an escape or survive until help arrives.
1 Year: Same as 6 months but better understanding of concept, body mechanics, in better shape, faster reflexes.

Again, all based on my style and method of teaching. Disclaimer blah blah blah, YMMV.
 

JowGaWolf

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Day one depending on the technique. Some of the intermediate and advanced techniques may take months or years to be able to correctly apply the techniques in a fight situation. The issue for us isn't knowing how to do a technique. The issue is learning how to use it in a real fight situation and learning what techniques to use and when.
 
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Jaeimseu

Jaeimseu

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Day one depending on the technique. Some of the intermediate and advanced techniques may take months or years to be able to correctly apply the techniques in a fight situation. The issue for us isn't knowing how to do a technique. The issue is learning how to use it in a real fight situation and learning what techniques to use and when.
How much credit can we take for something "learned" on the first day?
 

Bill Mattocks

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I hope this won't (but fear it will) degrade into a style versus style contest, but how much time, on average, does it take in your system for a beginner to develop practical skills (reliably doable in a "fight") in your system/style/school? If your school is different from others in your style in this regard, please explain how.

I would like to answer your question as I think you intended it, but the fact is that 'on average' probably does not exist that I'm aware of in our school. We have students who can already defend themselves when they start, using any of our techniques would be a matter of how quickly they can learn them. We have other students who may not have any particular skill at actual fighting, even after several years. In fact, some students don't study with us for the purpose of learning how to fight. There are many other valid reasons to train in martial arts.

In general, some people call the green belt the 'death belt' because a green belt often feels themselves to be competent, but they're not. That would be sometime within the first year on average. But that's a very vague statement. I'm sorry that I can't answer your question more precisely.
 

Danny T

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Everyone is different and come in to the martial arts with varying abilities.
Practical skills? Some skills come very easily and quickly others not so. I instruct a multitude of martial arts. Muay Thai, Wing Chun, Kali, Combat Submission Wrestling, MMA, Personal Defensive Skills.
One of the first real skills I teach is to recognize an attack is coming at them and to intercept the movement. From there just push off and create space.This skill becomes practical for most within the first class.
Other skills take more time to develop.
 

WaterGal

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Well, of course, it depends a lot on the student, and on the situation and person they have to fight. But I think I see what you're saying.

I'd say.... in TKD, you can learn some good basic strikes pretty quickly. If you're fighting the kind of opponent that will back off after getting kicked or punched a couple times, I think you could potentially learn enough to defend yourself within a couple of weeks. But there are other kinds of situations where TKD is not going to help you as much early on, and possibly at all ever.

In Hapkido..... Hapkido uses grappling and striking. I think you can, like with TKD, learn some decent basic strikes fairly quickly. But the grappling will take a lot longer to develop proficiency. For at least the first six months, people tend to stop and stand there, thinking, "okay, the curriculum says that if someone grabs me like this, I can step in, turn their hand over like that and do this wrist lock". They don't know how to apply the general principles and adapt to changing situations yet.
 

pgsmith

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I hope this won't (but fear it will) degrade into a style versus style contest, but how much time, on average, does it take in your system for a beginner to develop practical skills (reliably doable in a "fight") in your system/style/school? If your school is different from others in your style in this regard, please explain how.
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I would have to say "never", since nobody actually engages in Japanese sword duels anymore. :)
 
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Azulx

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I'd say 6 to 9 months and people start sparring a lot more naturally , using more complex combos etc. Granted we don't let people spar until at least 3 months of training so 6 to 9 months of training, 3-6 months of sparring. Everyone within a week or two will at least know how to do a front kick to the groin and palm heel to the nose , if need be for self defense.
 

Monkey Turned Wolf

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Honestly, it depends on the student. I've had white belts who, the second they see a punch coming, freeze and forget what they need to do. For them it takes forever to actually learn how to use it practically, and I fear that even once they don't freeze up in class, they will outside of class. Other students don't have this issue, but are slow learners and will also take a while for them to get used enough to the body movements to actually use it. A couple of students are quick learners and within a week or two could use at least the basics out there if they were to be attacked.
 

PhotonGuy

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I hope this won't (but fear it will) degrade into a style versus style contest, but how much time, on average, does it take in your system for a beginner to develop practical skills (reliably doable in a "fight") in your system/style/school? If your school is different from others in your style in this regard, please explain how.


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I would have to say it would depend on the student. To some extent it does depend on the style. Sorry to bring about your fear of this becoming a style vs style contest but I will point out that with a "hard" style such as Judo or Karate you will usually develop practical skills much sooner than with a more "soft" style such as Tai Chi. That's not to say that Judo or Karate is going to be more effective an art than Tai Chi in the long run, that also depends on the student. Martial arts can't be rushed and there are no shortcuts but a student can learn faster by spending more time or to put it more accurately, by compressing the training time more.
 

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There's just no way to really answer this question, even if we limit the answers to physical conflicts that they were unable to avoid.
We start teaching practical skills from day 1. But how long it takes them to apply them depends on tons of factors, including personality - some people are just more willing to hit someone.
We start students sparring immediately. It's usually no-contact at first, especially with kids, but from 9th geup on up there will be contact. We've got 8th and 9th geup students that I am absolutely positive could use the things we've taught them to defend themselves. And we've got 2nd and 3rd geup students who, although they can do everything required for their rank, don't "get" the idea of violent confrontation.
 

Ironbear24

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I can't say to be honest, every student is different and reacts to being threatened/ violence differently than others. One person might be ready to deal with your average street trash in 1 month while someone else may take 6 or longer.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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How much time, on average, does it take in your system for a beginner to develop practical skills (reliably doable in a "fight") in your system/style/school?
IMO, it takes:

- 6 months to develop any "general" technique.
- 3 years to develop any "door guarding" technique.

There are 2 parts of a skill:

1. technique - the correct way to execute a skill such as timing, opportunity, angle, ...
2. ability - your ability to execute a skill such as balance, power, speed, flexibility, endurance, ...

The technique development may be easy, but the ability development will take time.
 
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