curious

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Twin Fist, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I think GM LEE Chong Woo promoted GM Ahn to Kukkiwon 9th Dan, back when all the seniors were getting that around 1990 or so.
     
  2. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    I remember seeing GM Ahn's name next to GM Ahn, Dae Sup's name in the Kukkiwon Dan register you sent me. GM Sok Ho Kang's name was also in there.
     
  3. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Well, perhaps correct with regar to certain segments of the TKD world. I think the iisue with your statements were that they painted all Koreans with too broad a brush.

    "Twin Fist:
    the TRUE origin of TKD is OTHER arts, (primarily but not limited to shotokan) renamed and given a fake history for the sake of nationalism

    refute THAT

    those are the only two assertions i have made, and niether has been refuted.

    The Palgwe's came later, and most credit them with being the first original set of forms

    the taeguks even later

    the first forms? were mostly japense forms lifted whole from japanese arts"

    As I quoted from General Choi's book this was not hidden, in fact it was explicitly disclosed. Yet you called him the biggest thief.

    Would be pretty silly for me to refute that which was explicitly disclosed by this Korean.

    Do you still consider him to be a thief now being aware of the disclosures and giving credit to those who preceeded him?
     
  4. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    I know that my KJN is ranked in both the Taekwondo Moodukkwan and Kukkiwon. I remember seeing a black belt certificate with Soo Bahk Do on it in his office a long time ago, as well.

    Our certificates are signed at the bottom:

    Sok Ho Kang, President
    Korea Tae Kwon Do Association
    Moo Duk Kwan
    West Virginia

    To be totally honest, I don't know much about what function the KTA really has anymore, or what relationship there is/was between the KTA and Taekwondo MooDukKwan, but that is what is at the bottom of our certificate.
     
  5. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    Earl, when was that book written again? cus the lies about the origins of TKD started with it's founding and continue to this day by the KKW and many others.

    if, as you claim choi was honest about the origins of his martial arts knowledge, then good for him. Glad not everyone is guilty of adding to the BS.


     
  6. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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  7. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    That book contains a publication date of 1965. It is (I believe) the first book in English about TKD. It seems to be the english edition of a Korean text which is referred to as being published in 1959. I have not seen the 1959 Text, nor do I read Korean so I could not tell you if it was the same or different. Perhaps someone else on this board (Glenn?) has the Korean edition and could read it.

    So, I agree that there is plenty of B.S. out there about the age / origins of TKD, I think what General Choi wrote (Which I do not believe was meant to be a thorough dissertation) disclosed the roots and foundations.
     
  8. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I haven't, because I don't have time right now, to read 12 pages of thread. But the above are some of my thoughts. I am well aware that some MA practitioners in many different MA try to show a very ancient lineage. In the far east, that is because the older something is, the more it is to be venerated. When those who do so do it with full knowledge they are wrong in what they say, I think you can make a case for them telling lies.

    I am also quite curious, if it hasn't already been asked, since TKD is one of your arts, why are you so angry at TKD? Have some teachers disrespected you personally in some way? Do you not think TKD has any value? Is there no possibility that some things known from older Korean times made their way into TKD? As to kicking, do you see other Korean, Chinese, or Japanese MA using kicks as often as TKD?

    Just curious.
     
  9. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    i am hostile towards liars

    if they are honest about the origins of the arts, hey, i have no problem with them.

    i think real TKD, the self defense oriented lethal killing art of TKD is very valuable. I have NO use for the direction korea the KKW and WTF is pushing TKD, the sport side of it. I find it worse than useless, i think it is actually HARMING martial arts, and the reputation of not only korean martial arts, but ALL martial arts.

    one org teaches cheese, everyone else looks cheesy

    ONE guy lies, it makes everyone else less trustworthy by association
     
  10. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    so earl,
    IF, as you suggest, Choi was telling the truth about the japanese origins of the korean martial arts, how does that reconcile with the KKW putting out a false history?


     
  11. RobinTKD

    RobinTKD Blue Belt

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    If Mr. Weiss doesn't mind me answering for him, it doesn't, but then Gen. Choi was never part of the KKW. I agree that the lies shouldn't be there if they are there, but it's important to remember that the truth is subjective, and it can be interpreted in different ways by different people. The point a lot of people are making is that TKD's roots can go back centuries, Korea, like most countries has a long history of violent conflicts both internal and external, It'd be foolish to think that some kind of fighting system (both armed and unarmed) didn't exist back then.
     
  12. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    no, the truth is NOT subjective

    tkd is NOT 2000 years old

    there is no wiggle room in that

    it IS based on shotokan

    there is no wiggle room in that either

    there is nothing subjective about the history of TKD

    there was OF COURSE a fighting art in ancient korea

    BUT

    it was DEAD before the end of ww2, no living masters teaching it, a DEAD art

    TKD was created post ww2, it has no roots prior to that other than from the source arts, the primary of which (but not only) is JAPANESE shotokan karate.

    this is objective fact.

    in effect, using your logic, i could say that the "roots" of english are summarian and babalonian, since they are both spoken languages.
     
  13. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    How old is taekkyon, in your opinion?
     
  14. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Retired

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekkyeon

    http://www.your-martial-arts-resources.com/taekkyon.html
     
  15. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    1) irrelevant since it has nothing to do with TKD
    2) again, modern takkyon is a recreated art, there is no line going back any further than the end of WW2, other than song duk ki, and his story cant be verified. and in any case, he is dead.

    regardlessof what existed in ancient korea, korean martial arts are pretty much all post ww2 creations, inspired by history no doubt, but not connected to it.

    this really cant be proven of course, but teh evidence IS there
     
  16. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Actually it was a trick question, because I don't think anyone really knows how old taekkyon is. My understanding is that taekkyon was practiced mainly in rural areas by rural, often times uneducated people. It was not something that educated people who could read and write did. Therefore there is little or no reference of it in books. it would be like trying to look up the history of cow tipping in the US. What scholarly work was done on that topic? mastercole, as the only certified taekkyon master in the US, is better equipped to answer or respond than I am.
     
  17. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Actually, only horses regularly sleep standing up, because of the way that their knees lock. Cows do not-they lie down fairly regularly-in a variety of positions not unlike those dogs take when they are sleeping. It is also structurally impossible for a single person to tip over a full grown cow.

    All of this information is the result of several scholarly works that prove that cow-tipping is a myth.......much like the ancient origins of tae kwon do. :lfao:
     
  18. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I love it when non-taekwondoin tell us the history of our own art.
     
  19. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Clearly, no-you don't. :lfao:


    (Not my fault you picked a mythologial, non-existent practice for your simile...:lfao: )
     
  20. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Well, at least you are coming down from the certainty of your previous posts. And I would also say inspired by history and culture. Like I have said before, in the US, if two kids fight, they put up their hands like boxers or wrestle, even if they have no formal training in boxing or wrestling. In korea, two kids fight, and they start throwing kicks at each other. Where does that come from? Shotokan? I don't think so. But all of this really doesn't matter. If you feel the pioneers of taekwondo, or the kukkiwon or wtf are "lying", then you are free to say that. go for it, and see if that makes taekwondo any less popular.

    Personally, I think taekwondo is a beautiful thing, a marvelous creation worth a lifetime of study. I believe you think that too, otherwise you wouldn't be studying it for as long as you have. There are enough non-taekwondoin out there who will shout from the top of the mountain about how screwed up taekwondo is. Taekwondo is about unification and working with one another and helping each other get to a better place. It is not about taekwondoin making other taekwondoin feel bad about their art. Let's leave that job to the non-taekwondo practitioners out there.123
     

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