curious

[tkd1964]

The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.

I shut a whole ton of stuff out of My head from the ITF I choose to not be concerned by it.

Wouldn't that be 1955?

 

[mastercole]

Did you read what I posted from the official WTF webpage "history?"

Can you not see how confusing that is? How some might insist on calling it a "lie," and those who promulgate its content "liars?"

I read it, and I understood it completely, did you read my response? Did you understand my response? WTF official history page did not seem confusing to me at all, but I can see how it would be confusing to someone who did not understand Taekwondo, and by extension, Korean culture. But I know GM Kyung Myong Lee, who is the one who actually wrote what you copied from that page. I also was smart enough to get his books, to read detail.

Do you realize that the web page of the WTF and the Kukkiwon are not meant to be complete definitive works on Taekwondo history? For that, you should read more from the author and editor of the webpage and Kukkiwon Textbook, which also is not intended to be a definitive history book of Taekwondo. Maybe that is why you are confused, you think you are reading the definitive history of Taekwondo when all you are reading is an overview. But I can see you are confused about a lot of things to do with Taekwondo, like the correct writing of your teachers name, and thinking that Kukkiwon left Gen. Choi's sine wave out of the 1967 and 1972 Poomsae, and that the Korean master's learned from the Japanese when they in fact learned from the Okinawans and so on and so forth.

 

[mastercole]

[h=2]Re: curious[/h]

Originally Posted by Cyriacus
The extent of My Taught Knowledge of TKD History: This System was founded in 1965.

I shut a whole ton of stuff out of My head from the ITF I choose to not be concerned by it.



Wouldn't that be 1955?​

There was no founding of the system. What was practiced among the Kwan in 1954, 55, 56, 57, was pretty much the same with little change. What was practiced in 1964, 65, 66 was also pretty much the same. 1955 and 1965 were not significant dates as far as techniques were concerned. A big change in curriculum came in 1967 with the creation of Palqwe and Dan Poomse (Poomsae).

1955 would be when the name was first used (by Chung Do Kwan and it's offshoot Oh Do Kwan), but the name was not accepted by everyone, most who continued to use Kong Soo Do and Tang Soo Do, etc. 10 years later, after some debate about the name, August 5, 1965 is when the name was officially accepted by the majority.

 

[elder999]

I read it, and I understood it completely, did you read my response? Did you understand my response? WTF official history page did not seem confusing to me at all, but I can see how it would be confusing to someone who did not understand Taekwondo, and by extension, Korean culture. But I know GM Kyung Myong Lee, who is the one who actually wrote what you copied from that page. I also was smart enough to get his books, to read detail.

It might behoove you-as a respectful student of his-to make some suggestions in terms of syntax and style. It might be good if it said something to the effect of the Korean masters adding native Korean movements and preferences to the kata they'd learned in Japan, but that might be too much to ask.

But I can see you are confused about a lot of things to do with Taekwondo, like the correct writing of your teachers name,

I am usually pretty careful about rendering my teacher's name, Oyama Shigeru, in the correct Japanese fashion, with the family name first, as he and my seniors taught me-despite a frequent insistence by others to render it and Oyama Sosai's names in western fashion, like:"mas Oyama."Likewise, I render Master Son's name the way it was taught to me, by him and my seniors:

and thinking that Kukkiwon left Gen. Choi's sine wave out of the 1967 and 1972 Poomsae,

No, that's your confusion-I merely stated that the forms were done without the sine wave-of course that silliness was a later addition of Choi's.

and that the Korean master's learned from the Japanese when they in fact learned from the Okinawans and so on and so forth.

And this is a nationalist distinction that is tenuous given the time, at best-Funakoshi sensei was teaching Japanese, and it's likely that the Korean masters received their instruction from Japanese student of his. It's also simply untrue in the case of Toyama sensei, of the Shudokan, who was, of course, Japanese-though born in Okinawa-of course, being a taekwondoin, you probably aren't aware of such distinctions........it's sort of like calling Oyama Sosai "Korean," when, in fact, he insisted on being "Japanese," but in this case Toyama was from an ethnic Japanese family from Okinawa.

 

[Twin Fist]

pretty much everyone, including the KKW fan boys has admitted that the official KKW version of the history of TKD is an outright LIE. By extension, anyone shoveling that crap is......well shoveling crap

I would say my work here is done.

thanks Jeff.

 

[mastercole]

Re: curious

Originally Posted by mastercole
I read it, and I understood it completely, did you read my response? Did you understand my response? WTF official history page did not seem confusing to me at all, but I can see how it would be confusing to someone who did not understand Taekwondo, and by extension, Korean culture. But I know GM Kyung Myong Lee, who is the one who actually wrote what you copied from that page. I also was smart enough to get his books, to read detail.



It might behoove you-as a respectful student of his-to make some suggestions in terms of syntax and style. It might be good if it said something to the effect of the Korean masters adding native Korean movements and preferences to the kata they'd learned in Japan, but that might be too much to ask.

Originally Posted by mastercole
But I can see you are confused about a lot of things to do with Taekwondo, like the correct writing of your teachers name,



I am usually pretty careful about rendering my teacher's name, Oyama Shigeru, in the correct Japanese fashion, with the family name first, as he and my seniors taught me-despite a frequent insistence by others to render it and Oyama Sosai's names in western fashion, like:"mas Oyama."Likewise, I render Master Son's name the way it was taught to me, by him and my seniors:

Originally Posted by mastercole
and thinking that Kukkiwon left Gen. Choi's sine wave out of the 1967 and 1972 Poomsae,



No, that's your confusion-I merely stated that the forms were done without the sine wave-of course that silliness was a later addition of Choi's.

Originally Posted by mastercole
and that the Korean master's learned from the Japanese when they in fact learned from the Okinawans and so on and so forth.



And this is a nationalist distinction that is tenuous given the time, at best-Funakoshi sensei was teaching Japanese, and it's likely that the Korean masters received their instruction from Japanese student of his. It's also simply untrue in the case of Toyama sensei, of the Shudokan, who was, of course, Japanese-though born in Okinawa-of course, being a taekwondoin, you probably aren't aware of such distinctions........it's sort of like calling Oyama Sosai "Korean," when, in fact, he insisted on being"Japanese," but in this case Toyama was from an ethnic Japanese family from Okinawa.​

I was speaking of GM Kyung Myong Lee as an author and editor -- to this audience. Also, I have no problem at all with what he has presented on those official websites, I feel it is just enough information to motivate the curious student to search deeper.

Why do you write Oyama Sensei's last name first and not show the same respect, as demanded in Korean culture, calling your instructor by first name? And you were not speaking of him as an author, as Korean authors names will often appear in books with the Western style. It would be correct for you to refer to him as GM SON Duk Song, or Son Sabumnim, or Son Kwanjangnim, the same courtesy you extend Oyama Sensei.

And your comment that the Poomsae were made without the sine wave was out of time, regardless.

Toyama Sensei was born, and raised in Okinawa, regardless of his bloodline. He learned form some of the same teachers as Funakoshi Sensei and Mabuni Sensei. I'd say that's very Okinawan. And if you have evidence of any of the Kwan founders training under Japanese born and raised Karate instructors, please present it.

 

[elder999]

I Why do you write Oyama Sensei's last name first and not show the same respect, as demanded in Korean culture, calling your instructor by first name? And you were not speaking of him as an author, as Korean authors names will often appear in books with the Western style. It would be correct for you to refer to him as GM SON Duk Song, or Son Sabumnim, or Son Kwanjangnim, the same courtesy you extend Oyama Sensei.

As I said, that rendering was how the majority of my seniors referred to him, as well as how he introduced himself-I don't know why he chose to do so; I can only speculate. In any case, I do so out of respect for what were pretty clearly his wishes.

Since most of the founders of the kwans trained in Japanese university, with university clubs, it's unlikely that they received instruction directly from Funakoshi, or any other Okinawan, and far more likely that they received their instructions from Japanese students-with possible exception of those who trained under Toyama.

 

[mastercole]

As I said, that rendering was how the majority of my seniors referred to him, as well as how he introduced himself-I don't know why he chose to do so; I can only speculate. In any case, I do so out of respect for what were pretty clearly his wishes.

Since most of the founders of the kwans trained in Japanese university, with university clubs, it's unlikely that they received instruction directly from Funakoshi, or any other Okinawan, and far more likely that they received their instructions from Japanese students-with possible exception of those who trained under Toyama.

Chung Do Kwan founder GM LEE Won Kuk stated that he trained with Funakoshi's son, who was Okinawan. So did Song Moo Kwan founder GM ROH Byeong Jick. And if Toyama Sensei is Okinawan now then that makes Chang Moo Kwan's GM YOON Byeong In, and, Jidokwan's GM YON Kwai Byeong two more who trained directly under Okinawans.

If we want to consider GM KIM Ki Hwang as a founder of Moo Duk Kwan, he to trained directly under Toyama Sensei.

What about Jidokwan's GM CHUN Sang Sup, who trained at Takushoku Dai, who do you think taught him directly, an Okinawan, or a Japanese master?

Let's not forget about Oh Do Kwan founder CHOI Hong Hi. Some claim he trained with Funakoshi, or his son.

Looks like most of the Kwan founders had Okinawan teachers. Unless you have different information.

 

[elder999]

Chung Do Kwan founder GM LEE Won Kuk stated that he trained with Funakoshi's son, who was Okinawan. So did Song Moo Kwan founder GM ROH Byeong Jick. And if Toyama Sensei is Okinawan now then that makes Chang Moo Kwan's GM YOON Byeong In, and, Jidokwan's GM YON Kwai Byeong two more who trained directly under Okinawans.

If we want to consider GM KIM Ki Hwang as a founder of Moo Duk Kwan, he to trained directly under Toyama Sensei.

What about Jidokwan's GM CHUN Sang Sup, who trained at Takushoku Dai, who do you think taught him directly, an Okinawan, or a Japanese master?

Let's not forget about Oh Do Kwan founder CHOI Hong Hi. Some claim he trained with Funakoshi, or his son.

Looks like most of the Kwan founders had Okinawan teachers. Unless you have different information.

Ah, but it was Funakoshi's son who gave Shotokan its Japanese cultural and stylistic flavoring, as well as a well rounded arsenal of kicks.

Likewise, he was, by all accounts, pretty sick during WWII-though he did continue to train-but I have to question how much training they actually did "with" him, versus "under" him-something we probably have no way of really knowing, though they couldn't have had it easy with the Japanese students at that time.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Master Weiss, when was the sine wave added. What is the history of that?

While the term Sine Wave first appears in the 1980 Text, the methodology of flexing the knees to help generate power in leg techniques appears in the 1972 text. I will check the 1965 text to see if it appears there. Before the 1980 text the term we used in the USA was "Spring Style" reflecting the fact that the head moved up and down as the knes flexed as opposed to staying level as fouind in other systems. As with many things that Gneral Choi came up with names for I consider it to be a metaphor and not a perfect description especialy from a physcs standpoint. Other such terms include "L" stance, "U" shape Block, Double Arc and Block etc.

 

[puunui]

Wouldn't that be 1955?

no.

 

[puunui]

And this is a nationalist distinction that is tenuous given the time, at best-Funakoshi sensei was teaching Japanese, and it's likely that the Korean masters received their instruction from Japanese student of his.

No need to speculate. GM LEE Won Kuk told me personally that his teacher was both FUNAKOSHI Gichin Sensei (father) and FUNAKOSHI Yoshitaka Sensei (son). GM Lee also said that GM RO Byung Jick learned primarily from Gichin Sensei, because he learned in the day classes, while GM Lee learned at night with Yoshitaka Sensei, because both had day jobs.

It's also simply untrue in the case of Toyama sensei, of the Shudokan, who was, of course, Japanese-though born in Okinawa-of course, being a taekwondoin, you probably aren't aware of such distinctions........

Are you sure about that? I ask because Toyama Sensei's birth name was Oyadomari, which is an Okinawan city and surname. I grew up with friends whose last name is Oyadomari, and they are Okinawan Americans.

it's sort of like calling Oyama Sosai "Korean," when, in fact, he insisted on being "Japanese,"

I just did a Kukkiwon promotion recommendation for someone in Oyama Sosai's situation, an ethnic korean living in Japan. He had a korean passport, and an Japanese alien registration card with his Japanese name, but he preferred to use his Japanese name on his certificate rather than his korean name. I'll let you know what the Kukkiwon does with respect to the name on his certificate.

 

[puunui]

Since most of the founders of the kwans trained in Japanese university, with university clubs, it's unlikely that they received instruction directly from Funakoshi, or any other Okinawan, and far more likely that they received their instructions from Japanese students-with possible exception of those who trained under Toyama.

Again, no need to speculate, we have direct testimony (which I have on videotape) about who GM Lee's teachers were.

 

[puunui]

Ah, but it was Funakoshi's son who gave Shotokan its Japanese cultural and stylistic flavoring, as well as a well rounded arsenal of kicks.

So what? That still doesn't change the fact that GM Lee's teacher was Okinawan, not Japanese.

Likewise, he was, by all accounts, pretty sick during WWII-though he did continue to train-but I have to question how much training they actually did "with" him, versus "under" him-something we probably have no way of really knowing, though they couldn't have had it easy with the Japanese students at that time.

Again, no need to speculate about the health of Yoshitaka Sensei or his contributions and teaching at the Shotokan. Plenty of testimony and evidence that Yoshitaka Sensei led classes throughout the time that GM Lee was learning from him. GM Lee left Japan in January 1944, and Yoshitaka Sensei passed away in I believe November 1945, almost two years later, and Yoshitaka Sensei's health may have been failing during that period, but not when GM Lee was there.

 

[mastercole]

So what? That still doesn't change the fact that GM Lee's teacher was Okinawan, not Japanese.




Again, no need to speculate about the health of Yoshitaka Sensei or his contributions and teaching at the Shotokan. Plenty of testimony and evidence that Yoshitaka Sensei led classes throughout the time that GM Lee was learning from him. GM Lee left Japan in January 1944, and Yoshitaka Sensei passed away in I believe November 1945, almost two years later, and Yoshitaka Sensei's health may have been failing during that period, but not when GM Lee was there.

Nothing like a first hand account. Now we know.

 

[elder999]

Nothing like a first hand account. Now we know.

We also know that GM Lee trained while at Central University in Tokyo, and that Funakoshi pere et fils Sensei taught at various universities throughout Japan at this time-which begs the question of who conducted training in their absence-as in, when they were at other universities. Most of my World Tae Kwon Do Association/Chung Do Kwan training was under Mike McGinnis, though I trained in GM Park led groups about four times a year, sometimes less-I suppose I could say that I trained with GM Park......

 

[puunui]

We also know that GM Lee trained while at Central University in Tokyo, and that Funakoshi pere et fils Sensei taught at various universities throughout Japan at this time-which begs the question of who conducted training in their absence-as in, when they were at other universities. Most of my World Tae Kwon Do Association/Chung Do Kwan training was under Mike McGinnis, though I trained in GM Park led groups about four times a year, sometimes less-I suppose I could say that I trained with GM Park......

"Central University" is Chuo Daigaku. GM Lee did start his karate training at Chuo, very early on, when Gichin Sensei and Yoshitaka Sensei alternated teaching duties there. There were no japanese students who were teaching at Chuo when GM Lee was there. Keep in mind that GM Lee was six years older than Nakayama Sensei and he began his training much earlier than Nakayama Sensei, who many considered "the" senior. But he was GM Lee's junior. Got that on tape too.

 

[elder999]

1454984[/URL]]"Central University" is Chuo Daigaku. .

Yeah, "Chuo Daigakiu" means "Central university."

As for the rest of what you have on tape, too-if he says so.

 

[puunui]

As for the rest of what you have on tape, too-if he says so.

Well, on one hand, we have the words of the person who was actually there, telling us his experiences. On the other hand, we have your speculative comments. It's not a hard decision to figure out which is more accurate factually.

 

[puunui]

Keep in mind that GM Lee was six years older than Nakayama Sensei and he began his training much earlier than Nakayama Sensei, who many considered "the" senior. But he was GM Lee's junior. Got that on tape too.

Forgot to mention that GM Lee not only started before Nakayama Sensei, but he also stayed in Japan and continued his karate studies when Nakayama Sensei was in China, from I think 1937-1946. GM Lee has a very unique first hand perspective on not only the korean martial arts, but on japanese martial arts as well.