curious

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by Twin Fist, Jan 17, 2012.

  1. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

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    Well, since I am not a KKW guy, and since there was no love lost between the General Choi group and the KKW group I am not sure why you think I would want to reconcile what the KKW has done vis a vis a false history. I will leave that to the KKW people.
     
  2. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I disagree. I think you are a kukkiwon guy, but just haven't realized it yet. :)
     
  3. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Maybe not, but the Oh Do Kwan certainly was, and is. In fact, when the new poomsae were being created, the Oh Do Kwan Jang, GM HYUN Jong Myung was a member of the committee. So the Chang Hon tul are incorporated into the Kukkiwon poomsae.
     
  4. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    But just because General Choi did not get along with the kwan jang doesn't mean that ITF members have to be at odds with kukki taekwondo practitioners. Remember last summer when you came to the US Open Hanmadang and we had dinner with the referees? We were all from different parts of the country, from different kwan, different teachers, but yet, there we were, sharing a meal and having a good time. That to me is what taekwondo is all about and it is why I say you are a KKW guy but just don't know it yet. You fit right in, and no one treated you any different.
     
  5. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Only.:lol:..without........:lol:,,,,,:lfao:......the.:lfao:.the.:lfao:."sine wave"...:lfao:
     
  6. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    sine wave wasn't developed when the kukkiwon poomsae were created. So course it wasn't included.
     
  7. RobinTKD

    RobinTKD Blue Belt

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    Isn't this how all Taekwondo should be? I'd love to see the ITF and KKW reconciled, but god knows I'd have no idea how to do it. You'd have to take equal amounts from both syllabus's and create something completely new. Otherwise I'd like to see official ITF sparring become full contact, or WTF shihap kyorugi start incorporating more hand techniques (not to say they should start boxing, but to at least have hand techniques used not just as a counter.)
     
  8. RobinTKD

    RobinTKD Blue Belt

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    I still don't understand peoples problem with the sine wave. Also, I take back my original statement, Twin Fist isn't the troll, you are, at least he is initializing a debate, not just useless snide remarks.
     
  9. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    You know, I offered what Ihad for this "debate" with this post(11 pages ago, and I don't know how many pages before you entered.....):

    And it was mostly ignored.....

    The snide remarks aren't useless-they make me laugh.


    :lfao:

    See?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 24, 2014
  10. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    It seems clear to me that after WWII a small number of martial arts Masters, mostly in Japanese and Chinese styles of martial arts, united to create a national sport to promote Korean nationalism and called that art Taekwondo, and used purported similarities to ancient cultures which inhabited the same general piece of land to try to give that NEW art some air of credibility.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

    I was at a seminar recently where a Taekwondo instructor told us that TKD was the direct continuation of the practices of Silla empire warriors and that the origin of the movements contained within the forms came specifically from the practices of those warriors while riding their horses long distances to battle lines.

    I think there's something wrong with that.

    I don't see anything wrong with admitting that the current way that you organize and teach combat techniques is a relatively modern invention. Karate gets "reinvented" all the time. Takahara taught Chuan-Fa, his student Sakukawa taught Te, his student Sokon practiced Shuri-Te, his student Itosu taught Shorin-Ryu, his student Funakoshi taught Shotokan. IT'S THE SAME THING. Or is it? It's each successive instructor's interpretation of that thing, and what makes it legitimate is whether it works and if someone else chooses to pick it up and run with it.

    I practice kenpo, from Master Parker's lineage. It was created around the same time as TKD. That doesn't bother me. I don't need to point out that some of the same techniques were being taught hundreds, and possibly even thousands of years ago. My kenpo works. That's what matters.

    I think when instructors are feeding their students a straight line of "TKD = Silla empire practices" they are doing a disservice to and yes, lying, to those students. Students who will then go out and repeat that crap and either make fools of themselves or pollute the minds of others. But I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "some people who used to live here used to kick people too." Fine. Does your TKD work on the floor? That's what really matters.

    On a separate note, bunkai isn't just "made up," and it isn't about "reverse engineering" or "figuring it out." It's the specific application of specific techniques and it's supposed to be taught. If your instructor isn't teaching you, he's either deliberately withholding information from you, or he doesn't have that information. Which is fine, but shouldn't be used to vilify instructors who actually do know what they are talking about. When I was learning TKD as a child I asked my instructor what the movements in the form were for and he told me "because they look cool." ERRRRR. Wrong answer. I have since learned the actual applications for those movements. From more knowledgeable instructors of course. Just because he didn't know what the movements meant doesn't mean they didn't mean anything. It just means he didn't know what he was talking about.


    -Rob
     
  11. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    Either that, or he was giving you the child's answer, since you were a child when you asked.
     
  12. Thesemindz

    Thesemindz Senior Master

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    Perhaps. Perhaps he underestimated the child he was working with.


    -Rob
     
  13. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    Not true. General Choi was a part of the Kukkiwon.

    The Kukkiwon was originally named the "Korea Taekwondo Associaiton Central Gymnaisum" and even after the KTA changed the name, the Gym did not become completely independent from the KTA unitl April 5, 1980.

    CHOI Hong Hi lead the naming committee that submitted the name "Taekwondo". He was also President and founding member of the Korea Taekwondo Association. The KTA already had the "Korea Taekwondo Association Central Gymnasium" established, at an earlier location. They built a new building and moved it there. Later they changed the name to Kukkiwon.
     
  14. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    cuz it looks retarded, doesnt develop any additional power, creates sloppy movement, looks like an epileptic, is nearly impossible to do RIGHT, and reeks of a desperate attempt by Choi to make himself relevant by creating some supposedly "breakthrough" in training.......

    IMO
     
  15. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    No I do. Feel free to tell us the history of korean martial arts at anytime. By the way, GM LEE Won Kuk, the founder of the Chung Do Kwan, told me stories about Oyama Sensei when he visited Korea during the 1940's. So the connection between GM Son and Oyama Sensei might be a lot closer than you think.
     
  16. puunui

    puunui Senior Master

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    I do not believe it is the proper time to get into specifics about that sort of thing. I would simply let more time pass. I will say that more and more ITF and ATA practitioners are assimilating into kukki taekwondo. Before the new Kukkiwon president took office, I and others were working on a deal to convert 6000 former ATA black belts in several countries to kukkiwon certification. That is the kind of activity I like to be involved in, not arguing about whether or not someone deserves a kukkiwon 1st dan if they don't know taeguek 1 jang. Imagine how many lives are affected if we make something like that happen.
     
  17. elder999

    elder999 El Oso de Dios!

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    Oyama Sosai studied with a lot of people. There was quite a fair amount of cross-pollination in the creation of Kyokushin. All of this is a matter of official record. The "official record" on taekwondo, though?

    From the WTF website:

    and:



    Now, how do you reconcile the above "official history" with what is clearly known, and demonstrated in my post on page 2?
     
  18. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    and thats that

    thats why i will NEVER join the KKW, they are liars putting out lies
     
  19. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    Master Weiss, when was the sine wave added. What is the history of that?
     
  20. mastercole

    mastercole Master Black Belt

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    The Oh Do Kwan style (ITF) already merged into the Kukkiwon. A part of it decided to separate and go to Canada, that was the CHOI Hong Hi part. That mass majority stayed in Korea, in the Oh Do Kwan and support the KTA, it's central gym the Kukkiwon, and the later WTF.123
     

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