Being Fit

[Don Roley]

For me its a real disappointment to see Bujinkan members which disparage physical conditioning, or claim that it is unimportant.

Well, you know it is a strange thing but when a guy old enough to wear dentures and only comes up to your shoulder ties you up into various knots without breathing hard, you tend to get the bizzarre notion that strength and muscle mass really isn't needed to master Bujinkan stuff.

I have a waist line slimmer than most people my age I work with and keep my self in good condition. But I don't think that I need to have muscles to get good at taijutsu. In fact, I have seen people let muscles get in the way of their development.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

You wont realize the importance of physical conditioning until you realize that you dont have it. Which by Murphy's Law will be at the least opportune time.

 

[Flying Crane]

Physical strengthening can help everyone, even a desk jockey or computer programmer. Core muscle stabalization exercises at a minimum could drastically increase your quality of life. Cardiac endurance can increase your quality of life, and the length of your life.

Good point. Poor conditioning can lead to all kinds of thinks like poor posture and back troubles. Drastic weight gain can lead to heart troubles and diabetes. A reasonable level of conditioning would benefit anyone, whether or not connnected to martial arts.

People don't have to be built like Superman, but a basic level of strength and conditioning should be seen as important no matter what.

 

[Seattletcj]

I have a waist line slimmer than most people my age I work with and keep my self in good condition. But I don't think that I need to have muscles to get good at taijutsu. In fact, I have seen people let muscles get in the way of their development.

This is the common argument against conditioning. I dont believe anyone here has advocated building muscle mass. Lets be reasonable. No one is talking about becoming a competitive bodybuilder. I had advocated strengthening core stabalizers. This produces correct spinal and pelvic alignment. This helps all movement become more efficient, and takes unnecessary stresses off of the joints. How does this get in the way of Bujinkan training?
Bulding muscle endurance and power will not limit your ability to do the kihon happo either. It will increase your tolerance for long practice sessions at the very least.

And again, martial arts are not practiced in a vacuum. Strength and overall fitness helps us live better lives, beyond the martial arts.
Oh, and the ladies prefer a healthy, fit man over a young man who moves like hes 80.

 

[Kreth]

At the opposite end of the spectrum, you have those who think that you need to have a physique worthy of Muscle and Fitness to be an effective martial artist. I call this flat out ********* Edited to conform to MT's Profanity rules, as a self-confessed fat bastard who left many a wannabe badass wondering how that old out of shape dude tossed them out of the bar.

 

[Don Roley]

This is the common argument against conditioning. I dont believe anyone here has advocated building muscle mass. Lets be reasonable. No one is talking about becoming a competitive bodybuilder.

I kind of find this hard to integrate with your later statement,

And again, martial arts are not practiced in a vacuum. Strength and overall fitness helps us live better lives, beyond the martial arts.
Oh, and the ladies prefer a healthy, fit man over a young man who moves like hes 80.

If you are not talking about muscle mass or looking like a bodybuilder, how do you define strength or the aspect that women will find attractive?

And FYI, I moved beyond trying to impress the ladies a long time ago. I keep myself fit to keep my wife happy- but I am not looking to impress others as you suggest.

I had advocated strengthening core stabalizers. This produces correct spinal and pelvic alignment. This helps all movement become more efficient, and takes unnecessary stresses off of the joints. How does this get in the way of Bujinkan training?

Is strength training the only way? Is proper taijutsu perhaps a better and more applicable method? I have found Feldenkrais to be a great help to my ways of moving and improving my spinal and pelvic alignment. On the other hand, I have seen with my own eyes people who have muscle take the easy route and use their muscles to deal with a situation instead of using proper taijutsu.

Did I mention that Hatsumi has advised us to keep a good diet and do things like long walks? Or that I have personally been told by more than one senior Japanese that I should stand and practice in deep stances in order to get better at my taijutsu? Not exactly the type of thing that will attract the fems, but at my age I am just happy if they don't run in terror.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If you are not talking about muscle mass or looking like a bodybuilder, how do you define strength or the aspect that women will find attractive?

There's not necessarily a correlation between having a six-pack and looking like a Belgian Blue...

 

[Seattletcj]

I kind of find this hard to integrate with your later statement,

If you are not talking about muscle mass or looking like a bodybuilder, how do you define strength or the aspect that women will find attractive?

And FYI, I moved beyond trying to impress the ladies a long time ago. I keep myself fit to keep my wife happy- but I am not looking to impress others as you suggest.

I dont see how my statments conflict at all. Having strength does not necessairly mean that you have big bicepts and a big chest and shoulders.
This is going off topic a bit, but it is very easy to tell if someone has good muscle tone and if someone does not. You dont have to be a bodybuilder to have good muscle tone/ definition. Women do notice this kind of thing. Men do to. It is natural to be drawn towards an individual who is strong and has good tone. It means they are healthy and can produce strong children. This is just biology.

Is strength training the only way? Is proper taijutsu perhaps a better and more applicable method? I have found Feldenkrais to be a great help to my ways of moving and improving my spinal and pelvic alignment. On the other hand, I have seen with my own eyes people who have muscle take the easy route and use their muscles to deal with a situation instead of using proper taijutsu.

Strength training is the best way, especially when combined with something like taijutsu. This is scientific fact. Any professional dancer, gymnast, physical therapists, or doctor will tell you this.
There is a difference between being mindful of your physiologic alignment and correcting it, and having muscle strength to maintain correct alignment. You need both. Feldenkrais is a wonderful method...but you need strength in your core to have true stabalization. The muscles I am talking about strengthening will not impead taijutsu in any way. Strong spinal extensors and stabalizors, and deep abdominal muscles will not create obstacles that will hinder technique.

Also,There is a difference between muscle strength and muscle bulk. You dont need bulk in order to have strength. Bulk is a product of a specific training routine which is designed to create bulk.

Did I mention that Hatsumi has advised us to keep a good diet and do things like long walks? Or that I have personally been told by more than one senior Japanese that I should stand and practice in deep stances in order to get better at my taijutsu? Not exactly the type of thing that will attract the fems, but at my age I am just happy if they don't run in terror.

Good diet is paramount and is great advice, obviously. Long walks are good for maintaining your current level of fitness, but will not help you get more fit unless you are constantly increasing the length of the walk or increasing the difficulty of the walk. I'm sure the Shihan are knowledgable in the area of fitness, but I dont think they should be seen as the final authority on it.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=176

FA: Many martial artists fear that strength training will have a detrimental effect on their martial abilities, for example, decreased flexibility and/or loss of speed. Could you address these concerns?

Staley: Well, the irony is that, in all other athletic disciplines, strength training is universally used to enhance all of these attributes, yet, in the martial arts, people are afraid that strength training will impair their abilities. Of course, like anything else, strength training is a tool: use it properly, good results; improperly, bad results. If I try to turn a screw with a hammer, I'm going to end up hating hammers, when the fault resides within myself, not in the tool itself. As it turns out, most athletes use strength training improperly, and this fact enables my career as a conditioning specialist.

FA: Charles, could you discuss the benefits of strength training by weights for the martial artist as opposed to developing strength by the use of isometric exercises, dynamic tension and a regimen of various calisthenics?

Staley: Well first, let's just call strength training the method and weight training, isometrics, dynamic tension, and so on, would be thought of as the specific means within the method. Many people tend to view strength training and weight training as one and the same, when in fact the latter is just one way of implementing the former.But to answer your original question, there are many, many benefits. We can start with some of the more obvious ones, such as the improvement of force output capabilities. A strength trained athlete can exert greater force on any given effort (absolute strength). He can also apply that force more quickly (speed strength), and he can exert greater force over a succession of intense efforts (strength endurance). The practical benefits of this should be fairly obvious, but for example, if, during a jump, one can exert more force through the ground with his feet, then he jumps higher, and so on. Now, what happens when we enter these discussions is that the martial arts are traditionally based on technique, which I would define as getting more done with less energy-- getting in the position of best leverage, using the opponent's energy against himself, all of that. So when I talk about strength, the knee-jerk reaction is "We use technique, not strength." However, if we match Steffi Graf against Michael Chang, who will win, and why?

FA: I'd have to bet on Chang!

Staley: Exactly. Because, if you have two competitors with equal technical and tactical ability, then the strongest one wins. So we're not suggesting that a martial artist forsake his or her technical training in order to become stronger, we're just saying that strength development has an important place in training.

 

[rutherford]

:soapbox:

Everybody's got their box. Nobody bothers to read anybody else's post. Much has nothing to do with taijutsu.

Personally, fitness is extremely important to me. It may hurt my development of taijutsu, but I doubt it. I'm unlikely to ever get that strong, as I have a pretty small frame.

 

[Don Roley]

Strength training is the best way, especially when combined with something like taijutsu. This is scientific fact. Any professional dancer, gymnast, physical therapists, or doctor will tell you this.

I note that one group you don't mention is Japanese shihan.

Did you notice what I wrote about Hatsumi's illness in post #19? how about Nagato's experience in #31?

Given a person from outside the Bujinkan stating things as scientific fact, and the examples of people who have been doing this art since before most of us were born, who do you think I am going to listen to?

The best way to condition the muscless that you use in taijutsu is to do taijutsu! Do it in deep stances, do it slow- like ballet dancers and do it correctly.

There are different types of muscles and doing pushups may be good for one art with it's emphisis, and be wrong for another art that deals with things in another. That is just common sense. So why do people with little if any experience with taijutsu (especially in comparison with the Japanese) not take that into account when they tell us how we should be training?

 

[Seattletcj]

Don,

With all due respect I think that before you get this deep into a conversation that is this specific, you should at least know what you are talking about. Especially when there are some people on these kinds of boards that may mistakenly see you as an authority on such matters.

Given a person from outside the Bujinkan stating things as scientific fact, and the examples of people who have been doing this art since before most of us were born, who do you think I am going to listen to?

I'm not sure why you assume that I'm outside the Bujinkan....because I disagree with you??? I'm not stating things as scientific fact...I am stating scientific fact. Just because you havent heard it before, or havent been told it by someone Japanese does not mean its not true.

I note that one group you don't mention is Japanese shihan.

Because I cant speak for them. I'm not going to pretend to know what any one of them would say. I highly doubt they would have negative things to say about strengthening the lower spine though. And, I am honestly reluctant to believe that you have the authority to speak for them on the details of this very specific conversation.

The fact that Soke Hatsumi's illness helped him evolve as a martial artist by forcing him to cultivate better timing and distance etc, is true. I dont disagree that this happened. I think that you are missing the point though.

The best way to condition the muscless that you use in taijutsu is to do taijutsu! Do it in deep stances, do it slow- like ballet dancers and do it correctly.

The best way? Its a good way, but I think you are really stretching it by saying "the best way."

There are different types of muscles and doing pushups may be good for one art with it's emphisis, and be wrong for another art that deals with things in another. That is just common sense. So why do people with little if any experience with taijutsu (especially in comparison with the Japanese) not take that into account when they tell us how we should be training?

I'm not telling you how you should be training. This is a conversation on fitness. I'm not sure why you are so defensive and passionate about your position here, which is honestly fairly weak.
And I dont care if someone is Japanese, Korean, or French, if they have good scientific evidence based practice to share I am open to it. The human body has the same muscle and bone structure from Africa to Ireland...it is not something exclusive to Japan.

 

[Don Roley]

(In regards to the Japanese shihan)

Because I cant speak for them.

Then why don't you talk to them as I have?

What scientific study has been done on taijutsu practice and muscle building? You say it is a scientific fact, where is the study using taijutsu folks as subjects.

The fact that Soke Hatsumi's illness helped him evolve as a martial artist by forcing him to cultivate better timing and distance etc, is true. I dont disagree that this happened. I think that you are missing the point though.

I think you are the one that missed the point. Hatsumi got better because of his illness due to the fact that he could not muscle something anymore. Timing and distancing are a part, but I just heard something to the effect that if you do a throw and it is not as easy as a solo rendition, then you are doing something wrong. Affecting the balance, angles, etc all have to be down to a great amount. And when you have strength, you tend to use it. I know from my own experiences that it is not quite that way at my level, but some of the older guys seem to have it down.

If you are so certain about this fact, why have you not spoken with Hatsumi about it? He is quite open minded and willing to adopt new things if they pan out. Why has no one has seemed to convince him so far?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If you are so certain about this fact, why have you not spoken with Hatsumi about it? He is quite open minded and willing to adopt new things if they pan out. Why has no one has seemed to convince him so far?

With the things he can do at his age, I don't see why anyone would want to tell him to start training in a specific way...

Anyway, Takamatsu sensei writes in his autobiography that you need three things to be a good budoka - a good physical condition, technical skill, and spiritual strength (and yes, he does write these things in that order).

 

[Don Roley]

Takamatsu sensei writes in his autobiography that you need three things to be a good budoka - a good physical condition, technical skill, and spiritual strength

That may be true (I am not sure what source you are using) but defiine the condition he is reffereing to. Is he talking about being able to walk a great distance as the old ninja did? Seriously, any of the photos I see of him when he met Hatsumi strike me as being an adonis. He could walk and do things for long periods of time- but I don't think he could do many push ups based on what I have seen.

Honestly, if in the years I have been here, if I had ever heard something from the Japanese shihan or Hatsumi that doing pushups would improve taijutsu, I would be letting you know.That is not the case. In fact, the story of Hatsumi and Nagato's experiences points in the exact opposite direction.

If these guys, who got better training that most of us can say, still found that they were using strength as a crutch without knowing it, what kind of traps can we fall into?

 

[Cryozombie]

I think... maybe there is a difference of opinion on what is defined as "good physical condition"

Someone may think it means being able to crank off 100 Pushups, 200 Situps, and bench 1 1/2 times your bodyweight. Somone else may think it means being able to go about your daily routine without the need for medication, a walker, or having a heart attack from the effort of lifting the beer bottle from the table to your mouth...

Perhaps we need a common definition of what good physical condition is.
​

 

[Seattletcj]

Don,

It is clear you lack knowledge in this subject. Thats ok. Its a science that takes real time, and effort to understand. But speaking with authority on something like this in an open forum, where you are basically claiming to represent the bujinkan and its leadership can be potentially damaging in many ways. I hope that someday you will research what we are talking about, so you can have a more informed opinion on the subject.

If the Japanese shihan said something or not, is not the point of the conversation. I think we can all agree that they are not all knowing, all seeing gods. Do they have medical backgrounds? Backgrounds in exercise training, exercise science, or athletic conditioning? Maybe. I have no idea. But instead of imagining what one of them would say...or pretending to know what kind of conditioning Takamatsu did during his lifetime by looking at pictures of him in his 70's, can we stick to facts about conditioning and the human body? Un-verifiable conversations one gaijin that I dont know anything about had with shihan x, is not in my mind the final word on fitness training. Its nothing personal.

We have already established that we are NOT talking about building muscle mass, or bulk.

We are not talking about just doing push ups. There is a whole universe of conditioning and training that you are apparently un aware of.

I'm assuming the definition most would use as "good physical condition" would be much more then being able to tap away at a keyboard and lift a beer to your mouth. Especially when we are talking about something very physical like the martial arts.

Strength/endurance training/conditioning is difficult and time consuming, which is the only reason you will hear people making excuses about not doing it...or it being un-necessary. How can I surf the internet and eat nachos if I'm at the gym?

For a great conversation on this topic of fitness and budo taijutsu, check out this thread on Kutaki no mura.

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2581&viewmode=flat&order=ASC&type=&mode=0&start=0

 

[Don Roley]

Don,

It is clear you lack knowledge in this subject. Thats ok. Its a science that takes real time, and effort to understand. But speaking with authority on something like this in an open forum, where you are basically claiming to represent the bujinkan and its leadership can be potentially damaging in many ways. I hope that someday you will research what we are talking about, so you can have a more informed opinion on the subject.

Boy, that is rude! Maybe you might want to calm down for a second instead of insulting folks and talking about how they want to eat nachos instead of going to the gym, etc. Go ahead and edit if you can.

If Hatsumi ever says anything about conditioning, I will be sure to let people know. If anyone thinks that there should be a form of conditioning done inside the Bujinkan, they should take it up with him. The only forms I can tell you that I know have been discussed with me are doing the forms in low stances, walking, etc.

I know Hatsumi is not closed- minded and is willing to accept new things to the Bujinkan. I also know he did a lot of physical stuff during his days in judo. Perhaps people should be talking to him about why he is not pushing for conditioning with all his past experience in it.

In my experiences, the definition of good condition that I would use for the Bujinkan is that you don't have fear of a heart attack or other health problems.

 

[Kreth]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Kreth
-MT Moderator-

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Is the way to be a better football player just playing football? If thats the case, the professional athletes have been wasting a lot of time in the gym. I cant believe we are debating whether its good or bad to be stronger, faster, and more cardiovascularly fit than an opponent. It may not be the ultimate deciding factor but it can be and woe to you if your opponent and you are technically matched but hes in better shape.