Being Fit

[shesulsa]

Uhhh ... is there any way we could get back to the topic, guys?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Yes, let's do that. I just want to say that that particular individual was not in the Bujinkan.

 

[Connovar]

So back to topic. There are generally two ways to improve your ability to fight. One way is just through conditioning, such as going to the gym, lifing wts etc and maybe the occassionally back ally brawl to get some experience. An example here would be a football player.

Another way is to focus primarily on technique. This typical with 95%+ of traditional martial arts. I would put the bujinkan here based upon my experience and the conversation we are having here.

The third way is to combine the two. Its easy to tell this this is preferred method used by those individuals who actually fight a lot against fulling resisting opponents.

The first two ways should be successful against fighting against an unskillled fighter. The third way is the best proven way to fight the skilled and conditioned fighter. IMO the bujinkan would only gain and not lose if appropriate strenghtening etc were added to the curriculum and thats the bottom line, right!

 

[Kreth]

Just curious, Connovar... You obviously don't approve of Bujinkan training methods. Why then do you continue to post in this sub-forum?

 

[Connovar]

They have some good and interesting variations of technique. Also I generally enjoyed the people I trained with. It has some great potential but I dont see it being met by current training methods.IMO

 

[elder999]

I have seen a lot of people who have a lot of muscle and few of them really get very good. They can pull things off that smaller people can't, not because of skill but because of their mass. They know no other way of moving. They never had to move any other way.

Until they reach age 60.

A friend of mine said that you had better start training now like you were 70 because hopefully someday you will. I like being fit, but I don't expect to be like this forever.

Two words:Jack LaLanne

Four more words:My friend, Joseph Greenstein.

Granted, they're the exception, not the rule, but they should be our (everyone, not just martial artists) strength and fitness goal.

As far as martial arts, though, technique should always be primary in practice, and I'm saying that as one of those formerly sickly children who grew into manhood being called "ridiculously strong," and have, to my never ending surprise, no reason as I near 50, to doubt that I'll remain "ridiculously strong,"......at least, for my age.

And, granted, early in my martial arts training-as a young man, not as a child, I was constantly reminded not to rely on my strength-even told that I was doing something "too strong," particularly in jujutsu.....I didn't have to "give up" any muscle to not use it, though, any more than I had to give it up to keep from crushing people's hands when I shake them.....

 

[DWeidman]

There is a difference between relying on speed and power, and using speed and power because you *can*.

There are far too many people who use the excuse of "technique" to explain why they are fat and out of shape.

Between two people of equal skill, the stronger / faster one will win.

Give the choice between being stronger or better -- well, most of us would choose better. As for me - I choose better and stronger / faster.

This discussion comes down to the arena you are planning on executing in - force multipliers (weapons) change the "needed" force...

I am somewhat curious as to what kind of "fighting" everyone on here is expecting to be in when they are 75?

By the way - Nagato didn't slim down to 130 lbs - he is still more than capable on the strength side... From the arguments here, you would think that he is still cheating himself from *really* understanding how to move like Natasha (Brin and Natasha)....

Amusing conversation though...

-Daniel Weidman

 

[Connovar]

Hopefully I will still be doing some sort of MA at that age. Otherwise I guess a mugging would be the next situation (I hope not!)As noted above there a older people still doing taijitsu and apparently in Brazil therea are a number of older men still rolling with young guys and doing well. Since BJJ is very technique driven still possible according to what my instructors have observed on their trips to Brazil. Besides I expect we will be healthier than our parents at that age just like my parents are healthier in their 80's than their parents. Exercise is a great way to reduce the effects of aging. It wont stop it, but properly done along with other factors it can sure slow its effects.

 

[shesulsa]

Two words:Jack LaLanne

Wasn't he a proponent for the "less weight, more reps" philosophy for fitness and longevity?

 

[elder999]

Wasn't he a proponent for the "less weight, more reps" philosophy for fitness and longevity?

Dontcha mean "isn't he?"

 

[shesulsa]

Dontcha mean "isn't he?"

No, I meant wasn't he in the sense that he used to be very visible to the public as a whole - e.g. his television show. I'd have to say the average American prolly has never heard of him, though when I was a youngster, his was a household name.

I am aware that he is still very much alive.

 

[elder999]

Wasn't he a proponent for the "less weight, more reps" philosophy for fitness and longevity?

More like "more bodyweight, more reps."

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

The best argument against using strength the way I see it is that it gives your opponent way too much information about what you're doing.

Then of course, there's another side to that fact...with so much of the focus nowadays being on hiding your power and intention to the other person, a lot of people don't learn to differentiate between strength and power.

 

[Shirt Ripper]

Lelanne is good man and held in high regard in the the fitness (and strength) industry. He was a proponent of doing what you could to stay healthy and strong. Good man. Also, 92...correct? Somewhere in there.

I was very happy to see someone posting on here regarding "The Mighty Atom" and Slim Farman. Both of them held in extremely high regard in the strength world (my world... ). Slim is honestly an "idle" of mine...though I don't really believe in that type of thing.

I like this thread.

 

[shinbushi]

Just curious, Connovar... You obviously don't approve of Bujinkan training methods. Why then do you continue to post in this sub-forum?

not all Bujinkan members are against conditioning and pressure testing.

 

[Don Roley]

By the way - Nagato didn't slim down to 130 lbs - he is still more than capable on the strength side... From the arguments here, you would think that he is still cheating himself from *really* understanding how to move like Natasha (Brin and Natasha)....

Yes he did slim down. He lost a lot of muscle mass on purpose. After some training at his reduced weight, he gained some weight back of a different muscle type.

Previously he had the type of muscles built up by pushups and situps. They give explosive, quick contractions. The muscles he has now are from endurance type of exercises such as getting low into kamae and the like.

Go ahead and ask him. When you see him, you can tell that he is big for a Japanese. But he is still dwarfed by many of the visiting students. And despite being smaller and lighter, he can still toss those students across the room.

 

[Don Roley]

I have seen a lot of people who have a lot of muscle and few of them really get very good. They can pull things off that smaller people can't, not because of skill but because of their mass. They know no other way of moving. They never had to move any other way.

I think I should point out that there are several people I know who are big and move pretty damn good. Luke Molitor is one great example. Kreth's post (#35) about moving slowly seems to be the key to the whole thing. Big guys tend to rely on inertia based on their greater mass to pull things off. If you do things slowly, you build up less inertia and can't use your greater mass.

The examples of big guys that move terribly all seem to have the common denominator that they seem to hate slow training. I had a talk with a Japanese shihan about a rather large Texan many of us are familar with and he said "you really can't expect someone that big to have good taijutsu." But of course, with people like Luke around, you do have examples of people that are big and move very effectivly.

I did not want people to think that I thought all bigguns are doomed to second rate status.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Food for thought...heard today from my instructor that it should be the responsibility of the instructors to make sure that the people training are fit 4 fight enough to be able to train hard and push themselves without risking any injuries. That is all.

 

[Seattletcj]

Connovar,

You make some very good points. I'm going to guess that you are an athletic/exercise trainer/therapist ?

For me its a real disappointment to see Bujinkan members which disparage physical conditioning, or claim that it is unimportant. It seems like those people are just unwilling to put forth the time and energy themselves, and then make excuses to justify their position. It is hard work...much different then conventional training. There is no intellectualizing about it and breaking it down ponder its properties, nuiances, and higher meanings. You just do it. Push your self to your potential. And keep going. Even if its hard, uncomfortable, or inconvenient.

Physical strengthening can help everyone, even a desk jockey or computer programmer. Core muscle stabalization exercises at a minimum could drastically increase your quality of life. Cardiac endurance can increase your quality of life, and the length of your life.

If you live your life in a vacuum and dont care if your level of fitness adversliy effects your chances for survival, then ok. But if martial arts are for the protection of ones self, family, and country fitness should naturally be seen as an integral part of the equation.

Training a 30 year old body to move like an 80 year old body is insane.If an 80 year old had a choice, do you think he would choose to have his body, or the body of a 30 year old?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Training a 30 year old body to move like an 80 year old body is insane.If an 80 year old had a choice, do you think he would choose to have his body, or the body of a 30 year old?

WHICH 80 year old? Let's not forget we have old Japanese men within the Bujinkan who not only can bend their knees, but perform handsprings and kick people under the chin from a kumiuchi hold...