Bar-Brawl Evangelism. Come Join In...

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by MartialIntent, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    I'd like to read an answer as well. I noticed no one commented to my intentionally humorous statement that someone had better notify all of those pre-teen girls (and, to add, little old ladies) who have somehow managed to successfully fought off potential abductors and theives that their extensive TMA training (not) was completely ineffectual and congratulate them on their broad and lengthy experience on the str33ts.
     
  2. 7starmantis

    7starmantis Grandmaster

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    Suggesting that there are some rules to these encounters and that they should be followed is exactly what takes this discussion away from true self defense fighting and into brawling for reasons other than life or death self defense. In a self defense situation I'm not following any rules or playing any games. I'm going to address the attacker with the fullest intent of removing the threat with what ever means are necessary.


    If we are truly comparing apples to aranges than are you suggesting a street fighter must begin learning to street fight by getting into self defense situations from the beginning? Here is the crux of the matter:
    We are not talking about a life of fighting. Self defense is much more than racking up wins on your street belt. Experience only goes so far, as several have allready pointed out here. Each situation is so different and has so many different vriables, "experience" from one situation may not extend to the next. What does lend itself to any situation is training and conditioning your body. Learning to react, move, run, fall, roll, strike, knee, elbow, etc. As ridiculous as training a static disarm technique is to realistic defense against weapons....so is suggesting winning one fight will give you a better chance of winning another. Thats simply not the case. Wins do not help you win other fights, the only thing that lends itself to helping you win fights is your conditioning, both mental and physical. Aside from that its a combination of will, intent, physical condition, and skill.

    Let me address a few points though:
    I'm sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I didn't mean assuming your right or wrong in this discussion, I meant on the d3adly str33tz. If you assume your right, you have allready begun the conditions needed to get yourself killed.

    Are you saying that 90% of the people I come in contact with on the street will want to fight me to prove something? What I was addressing was my reasons for fighting. If I'm not fighting for any other reason than to save my life or well being, then I dont have to follow any of the rules of conduct, or criminal codes you are so fond of. Because at that point I'm justified in using lethal force, so I could actually shoot them as well. I think your a little off on your statistics of who wants to fight and kill people for nothing.

    Why they are attacking me, while interesting on a pyschological level, is really of no consequence in a physical confrontation. To think that you simply will never see it coming is again a misconception of the "d3dly str33tz". If you will never see it coming then you will never be able to defend yourself. So this whole thread is moot. I'm not going to consider the lengths they will go to once the attack is happening. If I'm out with my wife and someone attacks me, I'm going to snatch the life out of them as quick as possible, as soon as they lay their hands on me. What I'm saying is the lengths they will go to really become irrelevent as I'm going to my full lengths regardless. That is of course once physical confrontation has begun.

    Now these criminal people have the same social codes? You have contradicted yourself in this thread so many times I'm not sure you really know what you have said before. They can't be deadly, insane killing machines who will kill you for nothing then also share the same social codes as everyone else. Now your talking about snipers? You simply can't fight a sniper...this is ridiculous. If your worried about snipers on the street shooting you from the rooftop, you just better stay off the street. No amount of "streetfighting experience" is going to save you from a sniper. The most experienced streetfighter will die like everyone else if someone shoots them from the shadows and is then gone. I'm not even sure anymore what we are talking about....are you?

    Do you have any type of source to prove these statements? Some statistics to show "most cops killed in the line of duty are rookies"? And that they are shot because they relied on thier training? Or to show that "most innocent people shot by cops are shot by rookies"?

    Maybe you should research some of your beliefs and see why you believe them. If your worried about snipers killing you on the street, you have no defense. It seems your view of realistic self defense is a bit skewed.

    7sm
     
  3. 7starmantis

    7starmantis Grandmaster

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    This would be interesting to see answered. I'm 28, will be 29 in October.
     
  4. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    I'm sorry, I forgot to list my str33t creds: I'm an ex-Marine, so I've done my share of fighting in and out of bars, no combat time, though. I've also worked as a bouncer on and off for several years. I've never been shot or stabbed, but I've been hit with beer bottles, pool sticks, barstools, and various other implements you could expect to find in a not so friendly watering hole. Aside from all that, I've been training in the Bujinkan for a little over 14 years, and did couple of months of BJJ. I'm sure I don't qualify as a Bad-*** Street-Fighter™, but I thought I'd throw it out there for comparison.
     
  5. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    I'm 40. Beaten, broken etcetera by a parent using structural lumber (too young to be smart enough to do anything about it) twice, attempted petty robbery in high school by Las Chicas Verdes at knifepoint in the bathroom, held up at gun point at 18, almost got raped at 19 (security guard I worked with) and physically attacked, restrained and threatened with a knife at 27.

    Growing up in So Cal, I learned to avoid most other trouble (such as kidnapping, molestation, gang fights) by using what I know now to be awareness and prevention tactics. I was the one leaving the bar when things were about to get hairy, holding urine until lunchtime when there were significantly more non-gangsters in the restroom than other times, walking home on major streets against the flow of traffic and memorizing where every single payphone within a one mile radius of home and police station within a 10-mile radius of my home and anyplace else I went regularly were.

    :idunno:
     
  6. Jenna

    Jenna Senior Master

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    See that is the problem right there mister Kreth .. you are not old enough to be commenting on this here thread.. Young gentlemen of your age should be seen and not heard.. Go on now.. run off and play you impertinent whippersnapper.. :D ;)

    Hey I am 24 and 25 next week.. I guess as Shesulsa has said.. my views would not even register here on this toughnut thread.. oh ya want credentials eh? street credentials is it? well we will just see bout that.. but let me just advise you before you say anything to stay out of my badass mofo way.. I have 8 years on PS1.. 5 on PS2 and various unarmed specialties on XBox and PC.

    I think that clears up THAT matter and qualifies me to talk with some authority here..

    Jenna from the block (say it)
     
  7. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    I think you'll be surprised at some of the answers to my question.
     
  8. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

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    32. 33 in October.

    Never been in the military. The town in which I reside is quiet for the most part. Not crime free, but nothing compared to some of the bigger cities here in CT., where shootings are a nightly occurance. Worked for the DOC for a small period of time. I had the chance to spend 8 hrs a day with drug dealers, gang members, rapists, people who have been convicted of murder. The ratio of them to me was obviously pretty high. Managed to come out in good shape with any conflicts that took place. I guess I can credit that to the Martial Arts training that I have received from the people whom I've been fortunate to train with.:)

    Mike
     
  9. tradrockrat

    tradrockrat 2nd Black Belt

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    33 - turning 34 in a few weeks.

    I was raised in a very loving house in the middle of a rural neighborhood until I turned 17. Then I moved to the city to be closer to my job. One thing led to another and I found myself living in a very bad neighborhood for two and a half years. During that time I was a bouncer at both a neutral ground biker bar and a strip club. Also, I was competing in kickboxing and Martial Arts nationally. Furthermore, I was taken under my instructors wing and trained one on one for 3-4 hours a day minimum as he planned for me to take over his classes, which I did for a while. These were self defense classes as well as traditional Bando. I worked with police though I was never the instructor (assistant instructor, yes). I spared minimum twice a week for several rounds. At age 20 I began to branch out and study other MA's

    As a bouncer I have had several knives pulled on me, a Pagan's(MC club) Old lady tell me that she was going to cut out my heart and keep it in a box, witnessed a double homicide not ten feet away, stared down the barrel of a very cheap gun, been hit with bar stools, pool cues / balls, a large sofa, etc.

    To get home I had to either take a cab if I could get one @ 3AM or walk home through Patterson park - the local spot for hookers, pimps, and drug dealers. That's where I learned to stare back - hard.

    When I moved to California I wound up living in San Pedro and in the space of one week had a running gun fight pass by my apartment and a homeless person try to break into my apartment while I was in it. The gun fight sent me flying to the floor, the homeless guy got his *** handed to him and arrested. I moved.

    These are the closest things to "Str33t Cred" TM I got, but it has convinced me that the smartest way to survive on the streets is a low profile and a reputation for keeping to yourself unless forced to fight. Then you go all the way.
     
  10. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    I am 39, and this September we will see if I am "and holding" or 40 ;)

    Does the old Coleco naval wars count? If not then maybe some of my Lead Miniatures from Fantasy to Futuristic warefare might count?
     
  11. shesulsa

    shesulsa Columbia Martial Arts Academy

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    Rich, we love you, but no one cares about your belly-button. ;)
     
  12. Rich Parsons

    Rich Parsons A Student of Martial Arts

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    "G",

    You sure know how to scare me with that "L" word. ;) Oh and yeah I spelt wrong, guess I need more help then a spell check for Dyslexia. :)
     
  13. Kensai

    Kensai Black Belt

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    Damn! Sorry Jenna from the block, your enormous experience on not one, but TWO versions of the play station totally outdoes me. I am, in short, simply not worthy to walk in your shadow. :burp:

    Oh, I'm 29, 30 next April. I'm SO looking forward to that...
     
  14. MartialIntent

    MartialIntent Black Belt

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    I'm happy to let my beautiful thread drift into some inane low-mileage discussion regarding who's whacked the most people; whose trunk has seen the most bodybags or whatever, but if I could just take a minute and ask potential readers or posters to relax, find a space where no one's testing how high they can pi$$ up the wall and just take a breath.

    Everybody comfortable? Then I'll begin :D

    See, the original premise of this thread arose from what I feel is a particular inadequacy within SD training in the arts. It's not directed at any particular art let alone any particular individual's training methodology. The issue I have is that in my experience, few [being different from none] martial arts actively train for the *reality* of SD. The reality being different from the theory and practise-hall training by virtue of one simple difference: the intent.

    Sparring on the mats, your opponent is trying to score points or get a KO, depending upon your art and style. Though it's not generally the case, nor is it best practice, that doesn't preclude the idea that they may actually be trying to put you out of commission altogether, however, you still defend yourself both defensively and offensively to a level **WHICH IS APPROPRIATE FOR THE MATS**. Now, that's a different beast altogether from defending yourself against an attacker intent on serious abuse or mortal damage. And yeah, I know it's a statistical improbability for most, but we're not all gamblers with these things which is why many [granted, not all] do MA in the first instance.

    My issue is that there is an assumption that what works in training will *automatically* translate to a defense situation which occurs outside the dojo. I'm not saying there's no relevance in training the way we're training [otherwise I'd not be doing an art at all], but what I'm saying is that this assumption of automatic translation instills in us a sense of complacency that dangerously assures us if we run into trouble we'll automatically be covered, no sweat, no fear, take 'em all on. And that's a worry for me and I try never to send anyone out of the dojo with that belief, in fact I try my utmost to persuade students to the contrary. For me, training's all well and good but it is what it is - dojo theory. My advice for any of my students is not to assume their Aikido will see them through in a mortally dangerous situation, no matter what degree they are, no matter how advanced they are and no matter how many rounds of randori they've had, it doesn't matter - there should be *no* assumptions.

    Now I agree with a great deal of what's been presented subsequent to HS resurrecting this thread but for me at least, the central question that I think has been missed is how within our SD practices, do we reconcile a need to train reality **without** actually trying to kill our training partner or potentially getting killed in the act of training for it. Sound silly? Well, as has been eloquently stated already, there's little substitute for experience, but personally it's an experience I've got but am not happy to go seek out, hence the contrived scenario I tried to design at the initial post which is lost in time somewhere now.

    I mean, sit through any training course at work and you're expected, once it's complete, to get out and get your sleeves rolled up. Where I work, I never get training unless it was for a *very* specific application. Nobody would pay for me to train needlessly in an expertise that I wasn't actually gonna use, that's foolish economics and a waste of resources and moreover I'd feel personally it was a waste of my own time.

    Again, don't make the mistake of thinking I'm saying MA training has no merit. I mean, people train for all kinds of reasons, SD being just one. But again for the record, training SD techniques in our arts, while an amazing thing in its own right and which can certainly assist us greatly when it's needed for real, does not *automatically* translate from the mats to this godforsaken "streets" place.

    I'm not confident that there's any mileage remaining in this thread. I would have been happy to lay it to rest when it came to a natural close some time ago. However, for what it's worth, the question I was trying to raise was how can we train reality situations [where someone has malicious intent] *and* at the same time stay safe? It's an utterly perverse thought that we'd kill ourselves trying to get knowledge that would help us to stay alive. So can it be done? Can a safe, practical, working mirror for reality situations ever be adequately trained? Who's got brains as well as brass knuckles? Bring it on :)

    Respects!
     
  15. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    No, that's not it at all. I was just curious about the age and background of the members contributing to this thread, especially those making the most noise.
     
  16. Kensai

    Kensai Black Belt

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    Martial Intent wrote:

    Well, I have the brass knuckles, but I'm an officially signed up member of DENSA, replete with my joining "chufty" badge. So no brains. It's a fine line to train for realism, and to add juuuust enough "realism" without getting hurt too badly. I've been punched in the face and throat in my training, (more to do with me having the co-ordination of an asthmatic spider than nasty intent) I've carried on, eyes watering, blood and snot out of my nose, an apologetic training partner, perhaps their intent would be worlds apart from someone outside the training environment, but the lesson that I "think" I could/would keep going is... heartning. I punch, they punch, I kick, they kick, I take it damned seriously (matter of "potential" life and death), they take it damned seriously.

    As you said, I'll not going looking for a fight to see if I can use my art or to test it's validity, however, I'd like to think, that "perhaps", I am more prepared than someone who has never done any training, or conditioning, never sparred, doesn't have any sense/level of awareness. I refuse to believe that what I've previously mentioned is invalid because I wasn't taught by a former street fighter, or an ex LEO. Experience is great, but I'll leave the gaining of that to the guys on here that secretly fancy themselves as street fighters, or the next UFC champeen of the world. Their choice, not one for me. I'm too pretty. ;)
     
  17. 7starmantis

    7starmantis Grandmaster

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    While I agree with your point here, I want to add to it a bit. Your speaking of a level appropriate for the mats, but this level can and does change. When I'm fighting one of my younger brothers or sister I'm fighting either below, at, or just above their level. When I'm fighting one of my own training partners or one who is above my own skill, I'm fighting at a much higher level. So this can change depending on who you are fighting. In fact, when you get some training parterns who are as skilled or more skilled than you it changes the game a bit. You can really try alot more with more intent without hurting each other. Sure, the unrealistic part of training is you can't kill each other, but thats always going to exist. However, there isn't a huge difference in experience needed to choke someone out where they tap, and choking them out completely. Stopping an elbow lock before breaking or injuring the joint isn't lacking experience to following through and breaking the joint. See, control is used in every situation. If you do not have control, you aren't skilled in my opinion. Thats why I encourage both the practice of fighting and forms. In forms or drills you learn to follow through with the whole motion and in fighting you learn to set it up correctly. Combined you have a reasonable understanding of how to do both a control and breaking technique. Experience in breaking doesn't neccessarily play into the next scenario as we have seen pointed out here allready. The billions of variations in fighting disallows this experience from playing a major role in more than one fight. The choke that worked well in one instance may just not work well in the next. Period. So the truth is you cannot full prepare with either training or experience....not for every situation. What you can do is train methods and "skills" that transverse all situations, for instance body conditioning, cardio, falling, principles, mentality, etc.

    I agree, nothing is ever just automatic. I also agree assumptions get you killed. I do however want to make one small point here. When I began my martial arts training I was of the same mind you are...if I was going to assume, I would assume my training was not enough to get me through. Then as I started getting into more fighting and doing some full contact stuff with my Sifu I learned a very important lesson about mentality and the effects of the brain in a self defense situation. Once a situation occurs you have to know you are going to "win" or survive. There can be no doubt. I dont train that I will beat anyone up or win in every situation, but once the fighting starts, there has to be no doubt. Its a mentality thing, you have to be so overwhelmingly violent that you take away their will as well as their ability to threaten you. Even if your fighting someone much much better than you in skill and conditioning, you have to win. Its a survivor thing. So, while teaching people that they shouldn't have a false sense of security or confidence is a good thing, a true self defense situation requires a mentality of a survivor, regardles of situations, injuries, or suroundings.

    Training for situations you will never use at work and in life are two completely different issues. The amount of loss is much different. When addresing your life, training for something you will never use is an acceptable behavior as the using of it may be worse than the not using it.

    However, the getting out and rolling up your sleves can still be accomplished in "training". Getting with various people to fight, from different backgrounds, training methods and mentalities. While you may not be actually keeping yourself alive, the variables can be there to create a realistic scenario. The adrenaline, the surprises, etc. If I ever run into an attacker that fights me harder, longer, or hurts me more than my training partners and my Sifu, I'm in big trouble. While I can't stick a knife in my shoulder and continue fighting, I can practice the concept of dealing with pain and such. It comes down to mentality once your body is conditioned to a certain point. I've not seen any "thugs" or "insane killing machines" on my 4 mile run route, and I have very few self aclaimed streetfighters last through my fight workout to even get to the actually fighting. I've had a couple and after they throw up 3 or 4 times they try to fight and can barely protect themselves. The "average joe" who has been refered to here so many times, comes out of the gate with 15 seconds of everything they have and then dies directly afterwards. Grant it that 15 seconds is very important, but very few have the skill to even do much damage in that time period. I'm talking about non students here, I open the classes to the public and this is what I see. Alot of talk, very little action.

    I think it can and is done all the time. Its a matter of keeping an open mind and being honest wiht yourself and your training partners. It will never be the exact same, but then no tow real self defense situation will ever be the exact same either.

    7sm
     
  18. tradrockrat

    tradrockrat 2nd Black Belt

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    I take exception to your recent post. It was not at all what you were implying in your first post. Your first post was about about actively seeking life and death situations to test your skills on the street.

    Well all MA's that train self defense are training for intent. Otherwise, they are not training for self defense at all.

    Right. This is called sport. It is not SD. So the practitioners are not training SD at all. Therefore, it really has no reason to be included in this thread.

    This is true as far as it goes. but the real issue is schools that lie and say they are training SD instead of admitting the train sport. As for schools teaching techniques and then "live training". The effectiveness depends on the effort put into training.

    Originally, MA's were taught specifically to get their practitioners ready for just such combat. Just because many have watered down the curriculum doesn't mean that one can not train for real violence in a dojo. The experience comes from training techniques over and over with live training and sparring. The old way was just that they stopped short of commiting the deadly strikes and blows. THAT IS how they trained for combat, and how we can as well.

    Yet SD is training you to AVOID deadly encounters. So you should be expected to never have to fight again if you've really learned your lessons.

    I agree with this statement completely. But specifically training on the matts for Self Defense does translate to the real thing - if done properly.

    As stated above, the entire reasoning behind many martial arts - the reason they actually exist at all - is to answer this very question. If you find yourself concerned about the effectivness of what you are being taught - go somewhere else. There are still plenty of schools out there teaching MA for SD.

    Peace.
     
  19. Xue Sheng

    Xue Sheng All weight is underside

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    no
     
  20. SFC JeffJ

    SFC JeffJ Grandmaster

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    I have to say out of all the posts in this thread, this is probably the best one.

    Jeff123
     

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