Bar-Brawl Evangelism. Come Join In...

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by MartialIntent, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. Dark

    Dark Purple Belt

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    Yeah divine intervention, dumb luck and everyone makes mistakes lines all substitute for experience as well, none are proven to last forever. I'm not saying training is meaningless or it has no effect but it needs to be the right kind of training. What most people consider the "street," simply isn't. Most people lob, friendly bar brawls, soccer fighters and anywhere with two drunk slobs pounding on each as street fights or the street. Thats all just common poor and low class America...
     
  2. MartialIntent

    MartialIntent Black Belt

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    Jenna, yep ;) bingo, I can't disagree at this juncture!

    Respects!



    I dunno. There's me thinking I created this here thread as a beautifully prosaic piece of literature; a work of art full of blissful intricate subtleties and glistening universal truths; a holy shining-light born-again muse for the martial arts if you will. Now look! You've all turned it into a goddamn monstrosity. What is wrong with you people? A curse on your heads, Philistines!

    I'll take yous all, then we'll see! Oh ya think this is a joke? Come on then... step up. Hehe :D ;) come on! :p :lol2:

    Anyway, what's that smell? *sniffs* Someone brought a dog in?
     
  3. Cirdan

    Cirdan Senior Master

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    Inviting people on the StreeT(TM) to a round in a mobile fight ring kinda defeats the purpose of proving your StreeT-EffectivenesS(TM)
    Oh, and look how big my **** is!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
  4. painstain

    painstain Green Belt

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    i think my point was, its not the training you need, you need the stomach to do the job.

    and yes, i grew up in denver in a trailer park that rested between 225 and 6 complexes of projects. i was a minority being white in my school and was one of those kids that got their shoes coat and hat took weekly. what did i do, i stopped wearing **** that they wanted... do you think it stopped them no it just uncushened the beating. i have jagged scars all over my head from brass knucks and a scar on my back from being stabbed. but we aren't comparing scars here. the streets don't require martial arts, just common sense or complete psychoness. i just got crazy. quit school and joined a gang. did that stop me from getting attacked all the time, no. it just got me beat more severely when i decided to get out of it. beleive it or not, most gang members don't have the balls to kill anyone. there are millions of em all over the world and only a handful are responsible for musrders... but like i've heard in so many ways, there are a hell of alot of worse things than dying. being bullied to the point of craziness is one of them. i delt with certain thugs in ways that i would never admit to another soul. but i never ended a life doing it. but i'm only alive because i was crazier and crueler than most of the punks i had to deal with. can't say i'd change anything looking back on it now. i am also very talented in our martial arts system, but can't say i'd use any of it on the streets. the streets isn't the same as the drunks in the bar. nor is it the same as the idiot that is trying to rob 711 for 30 dollars. i must say, in gatting jumped by multiple attackers, besides the pain, it was a great adrinaline rush, sometimes enjoyable, but thats just me.

    with respect,
    painstain
     
  5. tradrockrat

    tradrockrat 2nd Black Belt

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    Now there's something we agree on - you got to know you can do it, and then you've got to actually do it. But maybe I'm a lone voice here, cause I never would have made it without my training- it was what gave me the skills AND the mindset to use those skills to survive. And I got it in a gym.
     
  6. Dark

    Dark Purple Belt

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    Thats something I can't say for myself, my earily childhood scarred to become anti-social and violent. I already had the drive and stomach for the "job" my training took me on a completely different path away from violence. Now I have choice, thats my difference.
     
  7. 7starmantis

    7starmantis Grandmaster

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    Ok, lets again define the terms we are using. Obviously you take the word "prepare" as meaning the ability to deal with the exact attack or movement of would be assailents. Thats not how I'm using it. Preparing for life or death situations is not a formula or static method. If formula or static method describes your training, maybe that is unrealistic training? There most certainly is a difference between fighting an "average joe" and a "real streetfighter"....the problem is your still speaking of fighting. I'm talking about surviving a life or death situation. The very term "streetfighter" describes someone who fights on the street. Who fights often. I'm talking about either being killed or killing. Big difference, we are simply discussing different things.

    Very true...once again your approaching it from a fight standpoint. I'm not talking about "common brawling" and "streetfighting". We have come to discuss life or death situations which cannot be described with either the wrods "common", "brawl", or "streetfight". Enough with the idolizing of the "str33tz".

    Ok, there are rules, there aren't rules, there are rules....which is it? You just said:
    :idunno:

    Your description of "streetfighters" is incorrect. You may be describing people who enjoy getting into scraps outside on the road, but its naive to try and label the person who might attack you. You simply can't "spot the real big bad wolfs" like it or not. You can't determine who is carrying a concealed weapon with the determination to shoot and kill you. Respect is a two way street, I share it with no one who is going to attack me and try to kill me. Your talking about "gang" type life where survival among many is key, I'm talking about a life or death situation where I'm going to actually snatch the life from someone. Big huge amazing difference.

    Yes, but your also saying training cannot give you experience and thats false. Once again however I'll restate my point on experience:
    If your answer to either question is zero, then you have no experience in that matter. I have experience in protecting myself in a real life or death situation, I incapacitated the attackers and went home. I do not however value that small one time encounter over my training. I used the smallest, most basic, least energy required techniques to end that situation fairly quickly and to my advantage. I've bene in other situations where I've been cut and had to run and hide for my life. I also used my training there to determine to survive, run while in pain, dodge nad hide, etc. If training holds no merrit, lets just send our police and EMT out to these "str33tz" the first day of class.

    This quote right here:
    Is the most ridiculous thing I have read to date in this thread. However, it does hold merrit when discussing fighting....I'm talking about self defense.

    So it takes experience, but then it doesn't if your being taught by someone with experience? Which is it? If it truly takes experience over training, what can you learn through training with someone who has experience? If it doesn't than you just made a point for training. I'm confused as to your point here. I think we are discussing different things here. Yes it takes experience to understand and be comfortable with these situations, but training can prepare you to act accordingly to survive and gain said experience. However, when discussing true life or death self defense there are far too many variables to say experience has any higher percentage of survival over training. That is the bottom line. There is nothing to suggest that an experienced street fighter will survive more than a trained self defense martial artist in life or death fights. Nothing.

    Wait, I was wrong up till now, but if I have an x-streetfighter as a teacher I'm now correct? I never said experience was not part of the equation, I simply argued that training wsa part of the equation. I really dont understand your reasoning here at all. I could be right or wrong depending on the past experiences of my teacher? Thats ridiculous.

    7sm
     
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  8. 7starmantis

    7starmantis Grandmaster

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    This is the bottom line of my point. The training gives you the needed skills to survive. It isn't a static forumla to defend X technique with Y technique, but an alive changing skill set.

    Great Post!!

    7sm
     
  9. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    Yes. We agree that training has value and can prepare you. In fact, I already stated that. What I am arguing is that to the topic of bar brawling/ sd you'll never know for sure you can do it, unless you actually do it. That's it.

    For professional life and deathers..again you're wrong. Bouncers, security, LEO's and military people do do it for a living. When someone has a weapon, that's pulled all of the sudden....Sorry, but, that's a life and death situation. Defending yourself physically is defending yourself, no matter what definition you want to use.

    As for the killing issue, again, not relevant to this thread. Again, Dry runs is training, fighting or sd is the reality. Yes, I do and have done both.

    Lastly, YES! You can spot the big bad wolves. Would be predators do it all the time seeking out the least resistance, from grade school on up. That is fact! Besides, the professions that I mentioned do make a living at doing just that. So, I can't believe you're serious with that comment.
     
  10. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    You can say that to those that make ridculous claims. However, there are those of us here in these forums that have come up on the streets, and do know how it is. You can learn from these people.
     
  11. Kreth

    Kreth Grandmaster

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    Let's just say I have past experience with one poster here, and his background story has been shot full of holes before. Of course, that was before he reinvented himself as a Bad-*** Street Fighter (tm). :rolleyes:
     
  12. Odin

    Odin 2nd Black Belt

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    Amen!
     
  13. 7starmantis

    7starmantis Grandmaster

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    I can agree with that, but not having done it doesn't mean you can't do it. Thats my point.

    Your talking about people who put themselves in that situation for a specific reason, not anything close to the citizen who get attacked. There are laws and rules governing these professionals. Ask any LEO if the same laws apply to them restraining a "suspected" criminal (inocent until proven guilty and all) and me (a citizen) defending my life. Its just a whole different scenario with different intent for these professionals versus the citizen who gets attacked.

    Not relevant to a self defense thread? Are you serious? Yes SD is reality, but the true reality is that you gain and learn the sklls and mindset to take action in a SD situation through training.

    Wait, you have both killed someone and been killed by someone? Thats amazing, maybe I should bow out now, thats certainly nothing I can say I have done. :rolleyes:

    I didn't say you couldn't spot people who can fight or are trained, or who have certain intent, but you can't seriously pick out who is or is not a threat and be accurate and correct. Thats just not true. You can go through some training (uh oh, that word again) to learn to spot potential "big bad wolves" but living on the assumption you can pick out who is the threat is a dangerous game to play, one that you will be wrong on at some point, sooner or later. Ask any LEO and see what they tell you about their profession. They dont pick out who is a threat, who is not a threat and hinge their actions on those assumptions. Those are tools for handling situations, they are not static forumlas or methods for determining who is a threat or not.

    7sm
     
  14. Dark

    Dark Purple Belt

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    Go to Iraq if you want kill or be killed, in a real world there is a limit and you need to know that limit, legally and mentally or else you lose.

    There are no rules to the fight, but there are "codes of conduct" among thugs, bullies, and criminals that will come into play adding up to that point.



    You said this was about life or death right? That is the very nature of streetfighting, its not idolizing or fun. You can spot the knife fighters and the guys who are strapped in most cases, they are the only ones no scared. Everyone else pretty much is and if there not they are usually fresh meat, as the term goes.

    I think the term is body language and visiual ques, you know to tell who is armed and who isn't. Oh by the way the guy who is going to stab you is one guy you don't know who is smiling at you... ;)

    They do they are called rookies and they usually go out with an older cop who knows when to break and when the follow the book.

    The reason the quote about having an instructor who is used to and knows what and how criminals think seems ridiculous is because you don't know these things first hand yourself. I suppose by the same logic a Ballet Dancer can teach you effective kick boxing, without having ever learned to kick box hinself? Same princible the "street smarts" plus MA (take your pick), makes a reasonibly successful combination. Just like some boxers and kick boxers have taken ballet to grasp a better feel for balance and grace in their techniques.

    Some with experience to teach you the things you'll learn the "hard way" but unltimately you'll have to do it and reflect on doing it, to understand it.

    Simple if you're there to learn streetfighting and your teacher was a street fighter, you would be learning things beyond techniques that relate to street fighting. If your teacher has the experience and knowledge to teach you to fight, that fine it falls into the millions of successful martial arts instructors all over the world. If your instructor has the experience as a street fighter and has the knowledge of a martial artist, and teaches "street-smarts" with martial arts then your training may infact help to prepare you for a worst case senario in self-defense situations. Does that explain it better or do what the perverbial magic pill?
     
  15. tradrockrat

    tradrockrat 2nd Black Belt

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    I've been reading the last several pages of this post avidly and find many things said by all parties to be true in my personal experiences, but I would like to add my own opinion to the theme of recognizing the big bad wolf and street fights vs. bar brawls.

    I find that you really can not recognize the big bad wolves without experience - there's just no escaping the benefit of experience here. But once you know what it is you're seeing - notice I didn't say looking for, but actually seeing - They stand out pretty clear. They're the ones who don't look down when you make contact - they stare back harder. They also tend to be watching everything at once just like we're trained to do, looking for threats and marks. I learned to see them by "reverse engineering", ie. this guy just emptied a pistol into a car cause they honked at him, how was he acting before that? (true story)


    Back to the premise of the thread - I just can't shake this image of four 13 year olds with pistols just opening up on the streetfighter(TM) set up, spraying 80 rounds all over the street.

    As for street vs. bar brawl.... well I'll put it like this; In a bar brawl, the one you have to look out for is the one who doesn't seem to care - he's holding. On the street, after dark you can reliably assume they're ALL holding, and that's a huge difference. The bar brawler uses it if he needs to, the street thug uses it period.

    These are JMHO, but it held true for me.
     
  16. 7starmantis

    7starmantis Grandmaster

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    There are so many assumptions and niave descriptions in this thread, I dont know where to start. First, you simply cannot assume you are right, ever. Assumptions are what get people killed. Read "Deep Survival" [SIZE=-1]by Laurence Gonzales...gives some great idea on assumption (conscious or unconscious).
    Everyone is saying, you can pick out who is the threat, who is carrying, etc. You can to a point, but you can't pick out who is not carrying, who is not a threat, etc. Also, you can't base your actions on your assumptions, legally or morally. The idea that you know who the threat is because of stares and head placement is absurd. While it does give you good clues and can allow you to avoid situations that might have proven you correct, it is simply not a basis of action, legally or morally.

    Let me address some of the quotes here:
    [/SIZE]
    This is the mentality difference I was refering to. As an adult I'm not going to fight you unless I think my life or wellbeing is in danger (or that of my wife or family). Your mentality is that of a fighter who fights to win to prove something, be seen, or prove legitimacy. I'm talking about fighting to stop yourself from being killed. I know the limits that apply, thats why I carry my concealed handgun. I know the limits that apply there and what I can and cannot do with lethal force, thats why I make the points I make. Mentally, I'm fighting for my life everytime...I am not responsible for nor will I hesitate to determine the attackers intent. If I feel threatened I will react, big bad wolf or not. We are simply discussing differnt things intent wise. No big deal, we just have to realize that and agree to disagree.

    First, I'm not a thug, bully, or criminal, so we share no code or rule. I've come a long way in my life from where I started, I'm not going to let anyone take that from me. Its naive to determine or base your action on the supposed "code of conduct" of a criminal. Again though, I'm talking about pure self defense, not measuring up who the best fighter is and taking on only those less skilled than him. I'm not "taking on anyone" I'm going to defend whomever attempts to "take on" me.

    Again, false assumptions and suppositions. You could have fooled me with the idolized part...seems thats what this thread is full of. while what you are saying here about spotting people carrying may be true in some cases it is not true across the board and has no set percentage of correctness on which to base your beliefs or actions. I've lived around several gangs both american and russian and I see huge mistakes in your categorization of their body language. While it may hold true in some cases, it is not accurate enough to base your actions on. What if you see the scared guy, go for him and he pulls out the gun you didn't see and while being scared shoots you in the head? You just can't place a "method" or "static formula" to these kinds of things.....you said that yourself earlier, and now your trying to do that same thing. Also, the chances of you being surrounded by a gang full of enough members to carry these listed attributes is slim to none, unless its your fault for being in that situation in the first place.

    Actually no these "rookies" have been through extensive training before ever setting foot on the "beat". Oh, and your fantastical notion of "knowing when to break the book" is not condusive to good LEOs.

    First of all, lets not get into labeling or describing things we know nothing about each other, eh? Its ridiculous because...well let me quote it again:
    Its just not true that you can't learn anything about fighting situation unless your learning from an ex-biker (what does riding a motorcycle have to do with it?) or a street fighter. Thats why I said it was ridiculous. I think there are some ex-bikers who might take offense to you saying they are all fighters.

    So can you learn it in training or not? That is the crux of our disagreement. You are contradicting yourself.

    I'm assuming you meant "proverbial" not "preverbial" but I'm still not sure what your trying to say. See, agian we are discussing different things. Your still talking about streetfighting while I'm refering to life or death self defense. So now we agree that training can prepare you for these "worst case scenarios"? I'm confused, you disagreed earlier, and now you agree?

    Bottom Line:
    Nothing is ever certain in a real self defense situation. This includes training or experience. You cannot set a true or false basis to alive realistic fighting. We have seen that training can and does increase your skill set needed to survive dangerous situations and we have seen that experience increases those same skills. Which is better? Which is worth spending your time on? Which should come first? These are all questions each person must answer themselves and design their own method of training. Just dont ever get comfortable and substitute realism for fantasy...thats the dangerous part. Its hard to keep your training as realistic as possible....try your best.

    7sm
     
  17. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

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    been there, walked those streets for years, been in those bars, seen way to much happen at times.

    Having been in the streests and bars and knowing and associating with bikers, gang members, police, you name it I will only say that I have had to survive a couple of times and I used the training i had been given to do so. And yes this was sometimes static traning and light contact but i learned techniques that where able to keep me in one peace.
    what i learned in the street was shutting my mouth and just looking into a persons eyes with respect but no fear and knowing it could go all to hell in a heart beat and that my life might depend on what happned the next minute
     
  18. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    O.k to the first sentence. I would agree with your point also.

    To your second point: I say what's the difference really? A fight is a fight! If I'm boucing say and get into, after trying to talk a way out of it, and eventually a knife, bottle, etc.. comes into play.. What is different between me and a citizen in the same cirumstance? If I, or anyone is defending themselves, It's the same for everyone..PERIOD!

    Your third reponse. The thread was talking about Bar Brawling. You brought the "have you killed" question. Totally different topic. What I do and have done was not addressed to the killing issue. I answered that in the first sentence. It addressed dry runs (training) and Self defense/fighting.

    Lastly. Yes!!!! You can pick ou those who are or not threats. You seem to divide definitions in your arguments. Aren't those that can fight, are trained, or have intent truly the big bad wolves? You better believe they are! They are the threats if they are in a negative state of mind! That aside, I and many others, even you, have done, or do it. It has nothing to do with training either. I know that's really hard for you to swallow. But, you can't teach it, No formulas etc.. You only gain it through REAL EXPERIENCES, over time. You're right about it being a dangerous game though. It's more dangerous, no matter where you're at, NOT to be able to notice the "players". If you're wrong on an assumption and they are not a big bad wolf, fine! They'll be less of a threat and problem. It's a failure to notice and recognize that gets you into trouble! I would think that someone like you who claims to have....."street cred" coming from "those" areas would know better than to make those statements. I guarantee, if you really did do, what you say you did, you did exactly what you say you can't, constantly. After all, Isn't AWARENESS the goal?
     
  19. Hand Sword

    Hand Sword Grandmaster

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    Amen to that!
     
  20. Odin

    Odin 2nd Black Belt

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    see i agree with that too.123
     

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