Bar-Brawl Evangelism. Come Join In...

[MartialIntent]

I saw a show on TV recently featuring some of the roughest bars in Britain. My favorite was run by an old ex-boxer. When drunken punters got a bit out of hand or threatened one another, or the landlord himself, they were invited upstairs to the boxing ring to settle their differences in a gentlemanly manner.

<Devil's Advocate>
You may think that Dickensian - and in that context it probably is - but transposed into another context: "Bar Brawl Evangelism", it's radically progressive. I'm talking about taking your club or school out onto the street corners to take on all-comers in a mobile fight ring! Not just Fight Club style either - bear in mind that Bruce Lee and Hawkins Cheung were street-fight delinquents in their formative years in HK.

I hear you all sigh, moan and throw your hands up. But why? If you believe your art can cut it on the street then what's to fear? Question.

You fear getting hurt? Especially since in your school, you take care to see that doesn't happen. Alas though, that's what happens in a street-fight - and worse too. But OK then, since you're new to this, we'll throw in some trained medical staff ringside, professional boxing style.

You fear you might get cut? Especially since in your dojo, you don't use live weapons. Well, surely there's a high likelihood your attacker will take a slice out of you during a blade fight the street? In fact, it seems you might well end up getting cut were you to engage any one of many of the folk here on MT who carry concealed blades OK then, we're squeamish too, we can search all contestants airport-security fashion and confiscate blades.

What else? You're afraid there are no rules, you're opponent might not care to stop. Especially since in your dojang there exists a very strict set of rules and etiquette. Uh-huh, just like the real thing kicking off in a carpark? OK then we're not barbarians, let's have a referee [or a couple of heavies] to break the fight in the case of a KO or impending serious damage.

Anything else? Oh, you're concerned about weight and skill inequalities. Especially since where you train, fights are evenly matched. Well if you can't handle that 250lb biker type then maybe you shouldn't be pushing SD in your school so much?? Well, no concession this time: you've got the martial arts training, your opponent doesn't therefore an even match is declared.

Happy now? Oh, the insurance issue? Especially since you're suitably covered in your practice hall right? Well, we'll cover that too, we know some extreme sports carriers who are happy to cover us.

So that's everything right?

Well, there's still that fear that er, you might get... uh... beat?

Well, if I'm wrong then you and your students would be up to this task right? Come on, think wider, that this is Bar Brawl *Evangelism*, that means many folk are going to witness your and your students' fighting prowess and more than likely in light of which, will be encouraged and inspired to come to your practice hall to learn control, fighting skill, confidence and general self-defense strategy. Everyone wins.

If I'm right though, and you are concerned you'll get beat then are you still happy to cite Self Defense as a crowd-puller on your website or in your mission statement? Or are you simply going through the ancient motions of practicing beautiful, flowing movements most of which have ultimately no more purpose in our modern society than dressing up as General Custer and playing out Little Big Horn in one of those re-enactment societies.

What better way to disprove those notions and reaffirm our martial arts as having relevance in today's real world than to take your art out into the street? Bar Brawl Evangelism is the future...

</Devil's Advocate>



If you got this far, thanks for reading. I'm very interested in your thoughts in particular as to why this would not apply to your art.

Respects!

 

[still learning]

Hello, We are still in the cave man era? ....FIGHT OR FLEE...that is all we know how?

Man is not mature yet in there growth....look at the world and world leaders....we all can see a WORLD WAR coming soon and near you too?

When someone cuts in front of you?, or yell or get mad at you? or bump you and look to fight you?....What are your reactions in your mind? ...and the other person? human nature? .....FIGHT OR FLEE

Look around..every country has a Army.

"If I don't get my way"....most people become a terrorist reaction?

"LOVE" is a nice word: People Love to fight or love to flee? "Let's make love"? .................Aloha

 

[SFC JeffJ]

From a tactical stand point, my problem would be losing the element of surprise. Very important in a SD situation where the perpatrator expects you to act like a sheeple.

And if there are referees and medical personel about, making sure things don't get too out of hand, don't we already have that?

Jeff

 

[Flatlander]

Cool! Let me know when it comes to my town. I'll be there. :ultracool

 

[jgrimm01]

Bring it. :whip:

 

[MartialIntent]

Still Learning, thanks for your input.

Do you believe your Kenpo / Karate gives you a greater knowledge, skill and understanding of what's needed for self-defense? If so, do you really think it's reasonable to have that confidence in your ability to defend yourself when you've got no scalable proof that it actually works?

Would you be as confident in our all-comers Bar-Brawling I wonder??

Come and join us on the streets!!

"LOVE" is a nice word: People Love to fight or love to flee? "Let's make love"? .................Aloha

There ain't no profits in good, clean lovin'...

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

From a tactical stand point, my problem would be losing the element of surprise. Very important in a SD situation where the perpatrator expects you to act like a sheeple.
Jeff

Agreed JeffJ, but would you be happy taking your Kenpo out on the street? If such an movement as Bar Brawl Evangelism ever took off, would you have faith in your art's ability to deliver you out of the hands of real trouble?

I think many of us [speaking generally, even personally] are happy in our ignorance. We're happy believing that our art is a viable street shield but I think many of us are plainly closetted in our dojos. Wouldn't it help to get our arts out into the open air? Come and join us on the streets!

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Cool! Let me know when it comes to my town. I'll be there.

Flatlander, it'd likely be more of a franchise opportunity. Hehe. I'd see it as an occasion for self-exploration and development of the art. I feel your verve though. Come and join us on the streets - you can head us up for Arnis.

Seriously[!] though, are you happy not to ever have to test or make use of your art in a real world fight? Or if push came to shove -pun intended- would you ultimately have confidence in the workings of your art to defend you?

I think many of us have been indoctrinated through our years of training. We fully believe in a system with no proof of viability and often no merit in a real world fight situation. I have no problem with art for arts' sake but when we're claiming repeatedly that our arts have practical applications in self defense, do we really have the proof to support those claims?

Respects!

 

[shesulsa]

So we get back to the same old argument that it's not a martial art unless it's viable on the street. I have kids to go home to who depend on me. So ... it's unlikely you will find me whooping it up at the local bar anyhow. Y'all have fun, now, y'hear?

 

[7starmantis]

Yeah, I'm all for proof but I dont know that what is being discussed is really proof of the arts effectiveness. It all goes back to the individual vs art delima and even then how many millions of variables are there in a fight? I know my training works because I've used it to defend myself from attacks on the street, but I dont think the effectiveness of my training changed simply because of those few attacks....my training was effective before the attacks happened as much as it is now after the attacks.

7sm

 

[MartialIntent]

So we get back to the same old argument that it's not a martial art unless it's viable on the street. I have kids to go home to who depend on me. So ... it's unlikely you will find me whooping it up at the local bar anyhow. Y'all have fun, now, y'hear?

On the contrary, I'm a firm believer in the hugely diverse range of benefits that the arts can confer upon usnamely [but not cinfined to] cardiovascular health, stamina and endurance, physical mobility enhancements, posture, the sense of pride in achievement, and of course the potential for a deep knowledge of oneself.

Here though, I'm specifically referring to the often unfounded belief that many of us have that what we train in our arts can actually protect us on the street. And I'm not saying they can't - many have proven the contrary but for every one who has, there are dozens who have been damaged trying and countless others who are blissfully happy just not knowing the truth.

Respects!

 

[shesulsa]

Here though, I'm specifically referring to the often unfounded belief that many of us have that what we train in our arts can actually protect us on the street. And I'm not saying they can't - many have proven the contrary but for every one who has, there are dozens who have been damaged trying and countless others who are blissfully happy just not knowing the truth.

And here again, we return to the argument that everyone trains in martial arts primarily for self-defense? While it is a significant reason given, I don't think there are many martial artists who walk the streets thinking, "la-aaa ti da-aahh, I'm so sa-aaafe, no one can hurt me, tum ti la la la-aaaa."

RBSD doesn't mean you have to seek a fight or brawl to prove something.

 

[MartialIntent]

Yeah, I'm all for proof but I dont know that what is being discussed is really proof of the arts effectiveness. It all goes back to the individual vs art delima

Apologies if this is overgeneralized. Of course I'm not referring to the effectiveness of the art per se but rather the effectiveness of the individual practitioner. At the same time though, were you to engage in such a street-encounter, you would [to some extent] be representational of your art. For that time, you are the embodiment of the system. Were you to be victorious in such a contrived bout, there would be an *evangelical* [if you pardon my fanciful language] outreaching of your art to those onlooking. "Behold, it's an SD art that really delivers on its promises," they'd say...

I know my training works because I've used it to defend myself from attacks on the street, but I dont think the effectiveness of my training changed simply because of those few attacks....my training was effective before the attacks happened as much as it is now after the attacks.

7sm, you've hit the nail on the head right there. You are one of those [and you must be only a small percentage of the worldwide MA community] who has transitioned your training from the theoretical stage through the "proof" stage. No doubt your art may well have been effective before you had that requirement to utilise it for real but then how would you have ever known? How can we all tell if what we're doing, what we're training isn't giving us a false confidence in our own abilities as fighters?

Respects!

 

[7starmantis]

Here though, I'm specifically referring to the often unfounded belief that many of us have that what we train in our arts can actually protect us on the street. And I'm not saying they can't - many have proven the contrary but for every one who has, there are dozens who have been damaged trying and countless others who are blissfully happy just not knowing the truth.

Is the only way of doing that just pure "street fighting"? There have been many "damaged" trying but does the fact of being "damaged" mean your training is inadequate? The fact is, you could be the top trained fighting in the world and still loose a fight on the street, there are millions of variables that determine what takes place in a real SD fight, how do you propse to train all of them?

I'm all for the spirit of what you are saying, but breaking and cutting each other up is just not the answer in my book.

7sm

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Well, I know from personal experience that my art is effective on "the street". To me, it sounds what you are proposing, with referees and medicos on hand, is another "NHB" sport. If you want to do that, train and try to get in the UFC or any of the smaller versions of that. And if it's not that, I don't see any state allowing it, not that it would really be thier business. If you just have your heart set on getting in a fight, just do it. Not that hard to do.

Jeff

 

[7starmantis]

7sm, you've hit the nail on the head right there. You are one of those [and you must be only a small percentage of the worldwide MA community] who has transitioned your training from the theoretical stage through the "proof" stage. No doubt your art may well have been effective before you had that requirement to utilise it for real but then how would you have ever known? How can we all tell if what we're doing, what we're training isn't giving us a false confidence in our own abilities as fighters?

However, my transitioning was through no intent of my own. Are we to apply greater respect to those martial artists who have been so unfortunate to have been attacked and come out alive? What I propose is that "proof" can be found without the need for serious injury or "being attacked".

How can we all tell if what we're doing, what we're training isn't giving us a false confidence in our own abilities as fighters?

Great question, one that willl be discussed way after I am gone. I think its a matter of attitude. I dont know that it is somethin that cna be taught per se either. Its a personal effort one must take to look inside and "test" what they are doing and feeling. You must be accepting of failure, you must seek out hard work, but can you ever really "know"? I'm not sure....even after havin used my training, can I take that one experience and blanket every future experience with it?

I fully support realistic training and I even train and compete in full contact fighting, I just dont think there is a need to apply the risk of serious injury or death to the equation. We are training to keep that risk away from us, not bring it closer.

7sm

 

[MartialIntent]

And here again, we return to the argument that everyone trains in martial arts primarily for self-defense?

Apologies, hehe, my knack for clarity is obviously eluding me. I can only speak for myself - but my primary motivation for practising my art is not SD. I can only assume there are others who similarly practise for other reasons than merely SD. No, I'm simply putting forth an argument that many practitioners of arts that claim an ability to enhance one's SD competence may benefit from a re-evaluation of their *actual* ability [away from the easy atmosphere of the dojo] in a real world situation.

While it is a significant reason given, I don't think there are many martial artists who walk the streets thinking, "la-aaa ti da-aahh, I'm so sa-aaafe, no one can hurt me, tum ti la la la-aaaa."

I can't say for certain but I'd reckon many actually *do* have this attitude. And many others I believe are quite happy not thinking anything at all regarding their preparedness or imagined ability in a real fight [if you've never faced it, of course your ability can be nothing other than imagined]. And I've been to and handful of schools where questioning the viability of the art in *any* capacity SD or not, is simply not regarded as good practice or proper etiquette. The pervailing servile attitude runs deep through the arts.

Come on and join us on the streets!

Respects!

 

[MartialIntent]

Is the only way of doing that just pure "street fighting"?

No, of course, I'm simply proffering the extreme example to make the point. However - as you're evidently well aware - when it kicks of for real, you're in an extreme situation like it or not. I don't feel one could ever train those situations in the sterile environment of a practise hall. If we want to proclaim our arts as vehicles for defense then surely we need to get our arts out on the streets. It's about walking the walk.

Where I'm from, the hoods run the streets. "Martial arts kiss my a**," they say. Round my way, the kids are tired of how the martial arts big themselves up without any real grounding in that sort of street environment. I mean it's all well and good to pretty around in a hakama with your well-worn black belt on your hip, rolling on the comfort of the mats but the attitude is: come outside and show us what you can do... That's the sort of thing I'm referring to.

The fact is, you could be the top trained fighting in the world and still loose a fight on the street,

No doubt.

there are millions of variables that determine what takes place in a real SD fight, how do you propse to train all of them?

Same way as one might train for any unpredictable scenario: practise, practise, practise until the mental connections are solid. We're infinitely adaptible creatures and some of the greatest fighters have been also some of the greatest thinkers.

I'm all for the spirit of what you are saying, but breaking and cutting each other up is just not the answer in my book.

7sm, no argument, I'm pleading devil's advocate simply to elevate the profile of the issue. Thanks for your input!

Respects!

 

[SFC JeffJ]

.


I can't say for certain but I'd reckon many actually *do* have this attitude. And many others I believe are quite happy not thinking anything at all regarding their preparedness or imagined ability in a real fight [if you've never faced it, of course your ability can be nothing other than imagined].

If they do have this attitude, then they haven't taken thier SD lessons to heart.

Jeff

 

[MartialIntent]

If they do have this attitude, then they haven't taken thier SD lessons to heart.

Jeff

JeffJ, yes that's true but then again how would we know any better - that we'd really not be so hot when it came to defending ourselves - if we've never put ourselves to the test?

I might be the best music notation reader on the planet. I might even tell myself after extensive study of keyboard dynamics that I was actually a pretty damn good pianist. If I never put my hands on the keyboard and play the music how would I know? Moreover I might be the sort of person who is quite happy to tell the world what a proficient pianist I am. To the extent that after a while I don't actually want to play the piano for personal fear it'd show me in a truer light.

The streets is surely where it's at?

Respects!