Avoid or invite confrontation?

[Tanaka]

For me personally, I dont really care what the "pioneers" said about whether fighting is right or wrong. They lived in a very different world to what we do. In my opinion, these days it is just stupid to have the notion that you should go and get in fights to prove what you know works or that you should fight when its just not necessary. With all the legal stuff these days and people carrying disclosed weapons and the fact that all the guys mates will come and jump in it is just not viable to go and get in fights. I went to school with a mate who could fight well and would never back down to a challenge. I saw him get in countless fights and never even came close to losing one. I am good mates with him to this day and an injury sustained to his wrist in one of his fights has affected his life day in day out. He cant play many sports, it effects his employment (he is a tradesman) and it has just never healed properly and is worsening as he ages, he has even given up playing guitar which he was very passionate about. He regularly questions now if he really did win those fights because in the long run he has an injury that will affect the rest of his life when he could have just walked away. As for testing if what I know works, I train with guys who use the stuff for a living (leo's, bouncers etc) and are getting in fights on a day to day basis and when I talk to them they assure me it works and works well, so Im not about to go out and get in fights just to prove that what I train works. I havent been in a fight in over 16 years and will most probably never get in a fight again in my lifetime.

I don't think one should get in a fight to prove something either.
But I'm all for someone who is deserving of punishment. Which in this case... I think puunui found someone who was deserving of punishment.

To me it's not really the actions they made or what they said. To me it shines of what kind of evil person they are. If they're capable of putting someone down for no reason without feeling bad. They are a Bully and obviously do not care what they do to people.

 

[puunui]

For me personally, I dont really care what the "pioneers" said about whether fighting is right or wrong.

I'm sure you don't care about how the pioneers felt, about a lot of things. That is one of the points that I am trying to make.

They lived in a very different world to what we do.

Do they?

In my opinion, these days it is just stupid to have the notion that you should go and get in fights to prove what you know works or that you should fight when its just not necessary.

If you say so.

With all the legal stuff these days and people carrying disclosed weapons and the fact that all the guys mates will come and jump in it is just not viable to go and get in fights.

ok.

I went to school with a mate who could fight well and would never back down to a challenge. I saw him get in countless fights and never even came close to losing one. I am good mates with him to this day and an injury sustained to his wrist in one of his fights has affected his life day in day out. He cant play many sports, it effects his employment (he is a tradesman) and it has just never healed properly and is worsening as he ages, he has even given up playing guitar which he was very passionate about. He regularly questions now if he really did win those fights because in the long run he has an injury that will affect the rest of his life when he could have just walked away.

Sorry for him. I don't have those kinds of injuries. I take care of my joints.

As for testing if what I know works, I train with guys who use the stuff for a living (leo's, bouncers etc) and are getting in fights on a day to day basis and when I talk to them they assure me it works and works well, so Im not about to go out and get in fights just to prove that what I train works.

It might work for them, but that doesn't mean it will work for you.

I havent been in a fight in over 16 years and will most probably never get in a fight again in my lifetime.

Good for you. You probably will never be an instructor with your own school either right?

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I'm sure you don't care about how the pioneers felt, about a lot of things. That is one of the points that I am trying to make.




Do they?



If you say so.



ok.



Sorry for him. I don't have those kinds of injuries. I take care of my joints.




It might work for them, but that doesn't mean it will work for you.




Good for you. You probably will never be an instructor with your own school either right?

I already do some assistant instructing and have a view to full time instructing when I get my 3rd dan. I wouldnt have my own school because my current school has about 30-40 full time instructors and 4000 students so I will be happy to continue within the club Im currently at as it offers me everything I could possibly need so I wouldnt bother starting my own. I will be closing down my business though, and will be instructing full time sometime within the next 4 years.

 

[seasoned]

This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:

"In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."

Where do YOU see the line on when it is/is not appropriate to use violence?

Carl

Some people go through life feeling that everyone is out to get them, and will use martial arts or any other weapon at their disposal, to strike out. There are way to many opportunities everyday to invite confrontation, if you so desire. I feel that avoidance not only is the right choice, but should be practiced everyday. Years ago when I asked my sensei when was the proper time to use self defense he said, when they lay hands on you. As children, the old adage was " sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me". Now, many years later, as the sensei, I teach, live your life righteously, look for ways everyday to help others, as much as you can. Be a good person, a good employee, treat everyone the way you want to be treated, including your neighbors. Once you carry this mind set with you everyday, when trouble comes your way, you will be in a much better position to address the situation at hand, and if so, your training will take over. We will always interact with people everyday for the good or bad, and someone has to take the high ground, let it be you. After all is said and done, and if need be, you will do what needs to be done, at it's proper time..............

 

[bluewaveschool]

Seasoned, as a LEO, how do you look at the bar example?

 

[leadleg]

In my life only two times were the police called for fighting, both times niether of us filed complaints. I admitted to throwing the first punch both times,but they said it was mutual combat and that was that.
I would add that in both those cases the other guy had been totally obnoxious in public and all the witnesses were on my side.
I have never been one to pick a fight but I will not stand by while injustice is being done, I have a nose that bends in two different directions from that attitude
And I have probably been only about 70 percent successful

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm sure you don't care about how the pioneers felt, about a lot of things. That is one of the points that I am trying to make.




Do they?



If you say so.



ok.



Sorry for him. I don't have those kinds of injuries. I take care of my joints.




It might work for them, but that doesn't mean it will work for you.




Good for you. You probably will never be an instructor with your own school either right?

Oh no you di'nt.:ultracool

 

[Bruno@MT]

I think that anyone who fights or invites a fight when it is not NEEDED is an idiot.
Note that I talk about uncontrolled fights, like in a bar or on the street. Controlled fights like MMA, sparring, etc are controlled, and you know the limits up front.

The gracie challenges for example fit in the latter category. They challenged teacher to unarmed fights in an environment where they did not need to worry about a friend kicking their head off when they were trying to choke someone, nor did they have to worry about knives, guns, or other things. And they knew that either way, noone would kill them if their system failed.

 

[Tez3]

Forgot to mention the Gracie family and their open challenge. I used to take GJJ from Relson Gracie when he first moved here, and he used to tell stories of fighting all the time. He and his family definitely weren't "walk away at all cost" types. They went for it, because if they didn't, GJJ wouldn't be what it is.

Where do the Gracies fit into your concept of right and wrong? Would they get kicked out of your instructor's class too?

GJJ, typo or another martial art?

 

[puunui]

How do you feel about fighting with a horse? Here is a story from General Choi's autobiography:

*
As punishment for my stubbornness, they assigned me to the most untrained and wild horse, called Hujida. Nevertheless, after I secretly trained the horse with my fists and kicks inside the base stable, it became docile within several days as it is known that horses are intelligent animals....

As I usually did, I approached Hujida with a carrot in hand. Without any resistance, it took the carrot and I took its bridle. One the way to the stable, Hujida suddenly kicked me in my ribs and I was directly brought to the base hospital on a stretcher. I never expected this to happen, but it happened....

Horses are intelligent animals, to the extent that Hujida could its revenge for my hitting and kicking. All the while it was fooling me, making me relaxed by pretending it was obedient to me.

*

 

[Tez3]

How do you feel about fighting with a horse? Here is a story from General Choi's autobiography:

*
As punishment for my stubbornness, they assigned me to the most untrained and wild horse, called Hujida. Nevertheless, after I secretly trained the horse with my fists and kicks inside the base stable, it became docile within several days as it is known that horses are intelligent animals....

As I usually did, I approached Hujida with a carrot in hand. Without any resistance, it took the carrot and I took its bridle. One the way to the stable, Hujida suddenly kicked me in my ribs and I was directly brought to the base hospital on a stretcher. I never expected this to happen, but it happened....

Horses are intelligent animals, to the extent that Hujida could its revenge for my hitting and kicking. All the while it was fooling me, making me relaxed by pretending it was obedient to me.

*

Well there's a man I'd really like to shoot! what a wicked and disgusting thing to do to a horse, what a shame he wasn't kicked in the head.
My daughter who is all of five foot and seven stone wet through trains horses and never has to resort to violence. Nasty, nasty man. If I found his grave I'd spit on it.

 

[puunui]

One more from General Choi's autobiography:

*

In my company, we had two recruits who were Yakuzas(Japanese gangsters), who also had fourth and fifth grade black belts in Judo....

They were very arrogant and paid no need to the other newcomers, the seniors, or even to their chiefs of barracks and platoon. They rough necked in my quarters and had an open contest of their judo skills in the corridor to demonstrate their physical power....

At breakfast hour, before our unit went outside for an operation, a bucketsful of rice had already been brought as usual and the bowls were arranged on the table. However, there was nobody except me for breakfast. While I unwillingly started putting rice into the bowls on the table, I waited for two newcomers who were responsible for serving meals for our unit.

As they planned, they appeared at the table only after I had served food for everybody. As their senior, I could not let them go when they did not fulfill their duties. I angrily asked them where they had been. They simply retorted by saying, "None of your business" in a daring tone. I was just at a loss, so I told them we would discuss this matter after breakfast. Then I started my meal. Actually, I attempted to eat my food but I could not swallow it properly because their reaction made me furious.

Until that moment, I had not grasped the situation -- that they were intentionally trying to make me angry by acting in a way that was totally incompatible with the Japanese Army's rules. I never imagined they could do that to me, who had entered the army three months earlier. When I started washing dishes, they also came to me with theirs. I scolded the new recruit, who had a fifth grade black belt in Judo, for what they had done to me. I indicated that their behavior to me was totally improper in the army and also noted that I was their senior.

Instead of an apology, he started an argument instead, insisting "Then, why are you treating your seniors, who came into this unit before you, with no respect?"

I could not stand their behavior and backtalk, so I slapped him lightly on the cheek. At the moment another Japanese reservist soldier, who was standing behind me, grabbed my hand instantly, trying to pull me over with his Judo technique. Yet, as I recovered by balanced pose, I hit them on the face with Karate blows. Both of them fell on their back with thuds. Judo 5th and 4th degree --- in other words, a total of 9 degrees --- had been defeated by a short yet iron handed man of karate.

*

 

[puunui]

I think that anyone who fights or invites a fight when it is not NEEDED is an idiot. Note that I talk about uncontrolled fights, like in a bar or on the street. Controlled fights like MMA, sparring, etc are controlled, and you know the limits up front.
The gracie challenges for example fit in the latter category.

The Gracies fought way more outside of the ring than inside. Or at least that is the impression I got from Relson.

Note: GJJ = Gracie Jiu Jitsu

 

[Tez3]

The Gracies fought way more outside of the ring than inside. Or at least that is the impression I got from Relson.

Note: GJJ = Gracie Jiu Jitsu

All the books I have by the Gracies call it BJJ.

 

[puunui]

All the books I have by the Gracies call it BJJ.

Do you have the book Gracie Jiu Jitsu written by Grand Master Helio Gracie?

 

[Tez3]

Do you have the book Gracie Jiu Jitsu written by Grand Master Helio Gracie?

Why?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The Gracies fought way more outside of the ring than inside. Or at least that is the impression I got from Relson.

Okay, but does that make them smart? Just because they fought more outside of the ring than inside is not an endorsement of unnecessary fighting or inviting fights unnecessarily. In essence, your answer to everything is 'well such and such did it'.

No offense, but so what? Lots of very accomplished people also make very life choices. The fact that they are accomplished does not negate the stupidity of poor decision making.

Daniel

 

[leadleg]

This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:

"In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."

Where do YOU see the line on when it is/is not appropriate to use violence?

Carl

obviously when the question is when to use violence it is to protect yourself or someone around you. It seems the thread has turned into is it appropriate to instigate a fight.I have to say I do not blame someone who lets a bully know they are not going to turn tail. It would be in everyone else's best interest to take it outside rather than start something inside the bar,the bouncer would have a different outlook had that happened. On the other hand the bouncer may be a kind of referee if the fight was to take place inside, something to take into account if the guy had friends who would jump in.
Everyone who makes some excuse to let someone bully them should realise they are afraid, afraid to get hurt,afraid to go to jail, afraid they might lose work......the list goes on but its still fear.
In puunui's example I don't know what was being said to him,but for me it would have to be more than just words, to overcome my fears.

 

[leadleg]

Coke, the largest size in the clear plastic cup, and it was on the road going up to Ala Moana Center. We were traveling makai (south) on Keeaumoku, and the right turn lane was at the intersection of King and Keeaumoku, right near the Chevron gas station.

Also for the other person asking what a slurpee is, it is a frozen drink, like an icee, if you know what that is, except not as light.

I think the cabbie is crazy to get mad at someone who pulled out in front of him,its Honolulu, you can/have to pull out in front of anyone, as long as you shoot them a shaka or at least wave while you mouth THANK YOU...........WHERES THE ALOHA? I do think its funny ,you driving a Lexus, imbibing in frozen concoctions from a 7-11.

 

[puunui]

Just because they fought more outside of the ring than inside is not an endorsement of unnecessary fighting or inviting fights unnecessarily. In essence, your answer to everything is 'well such and such did it'. No offense, but so what? Lots of very accomplished people also make very life choices. The fact that they are accomplished does not negate the stupidity of poor decision making. Daniel

If you look back at the original question, I gave the Gracie example and then asked if that would have gotten them kicked out of his dojang for fighting, the point being was that the the challenges, in and out of the ring, brought a revolutionary concept to the martial arts, one that really has changed the martial arts.

So I wasn't answering anything, I was asking a question. But thank you for your answer, because we now know that you think the Gracies are stupid for making poor decisions.