what the sport gives back

[leadleg]

I have been reading about the differences people think about sport and s/d,and began thinking about things the sport has given to s/d ,for instance cut kicks, cover punch,and follow foot. Of course there are useful side effects such as controlling fear,adrenalin dump.etc.
I would like to hear other veiws, thanks.

 

[terryl965]

Cover punch has been around way before sport and the same for cutkick, what the has given back to SD mainly timing a controlling distence withen the actual confitation. Remember cover punch is just a low block followed by a punch, cut kick is a variation from the sidekick.

 

[leadleg]

I will of course agree that these techniques have been around,not much new under the sun, but how many tkdoin trained in slide in cover punch,or chamberless sidekicks as a s/d scenario.We see that training in the sport classes all the time.

 

[andyjeffries]

follow foot

What is "follow foot"? I'm wondering if this is just something we have a different term for or if it's something we do but wasn't aware there was a term for it or if it's something we're unaware of?

 

[leadleg]

yeah its just extending ones kick by sliding or hopping forward with the trailing leg or foot.Nothing new but I have never seen anyone training that way except through sport specific classes.

 

[StudentCarl]

I don't think there are different techniques, but I think sparring and the evolution of sport has contributed to streamlining techniques in ways that contribute to speed and efficiency.

Spin back kick is an improvement on spin side kick due to less spin. The rear-leg roundhouse kick chambered by bringing knee forward is also faster than the wide-knee approach. I believe but can't prove that sport/sparring has encouraged the development and/or spread of those techniques.

Sparring encourages the use of footwork to manage distance, but that's not unique to sport--it's just more emphasized.

Your comment about adrenaline is on the mark. It's also worth mentioning that sparring helps you learn to handle getting hit. There are some disadvantages to sport TKD for the habits it develops in terms of SD. Like anything, there are pros and cons.

To me, the biggest plus is that I refine my distance management. If you don't spar, you don't really know how to manage your striking distance on a moving target. Boards and bags aren't the same as an opponent who wants to make you miss and then scatter your chickens.

 

[miguksaram]

I have been reading about the differences people think about sport and s/d,and began thinking about things the sport has given to s/d ,for instance cut kicks, cover punch,and follow foot. Of course there are useful side effects such as controlling fear,adrenalin dump.etc.
I would like to hear other veiws, thanks.

(Note: I wrote this article a couple of years ago but I still feel it holds true today. I d did change the dates to make it up-to-date.)

January 27-29, 2011 marks the date for the 46th Annual AKA Grand Nationals tournament, one of the oldest tournaments still running in the United States today. Adults and kids from all over North America and Europe will travel to Chicago, Illinois, the site of the event, to participate in this annual martial arts competition and with it just around the corner I can’t help but recall debates about competition in the martial arts. Now there is always an ongoing debate somewhere on the internet about the pros and cons of having such events. More than not, the biggest complaint I hear over and over from the con side of the debate is that these types of events actually degrade martial arts or causes the martial arts to become watered down. I recently had the privilege to sit down with six young athletes who participate in sport martial art tournaments, just to see what drives them to do compete. (See September 2008 issue of Taekwondo Times for the article)
The more I spoke with them about competition, the more it reinforced my belief in how competition is very healthy and a much underrated part of the martial arts. That is not to say that if your school doesn’t do competitions, then your school is no good, far from it. What I am saying is that there are many good things that can come out of competition in the martial arts. What better way to practice the building blocks success such as perseverance, self confidence, self discipline and respect than to be put in a situation where you have to utilize those building blocks to help achieve victory?
And remember, victory is not determined on if you win or lose, it is determined on how you yourself have progressed as a person. When you see that you are able to better yourself in just one area in life, utilizing these building blocks, you begin to apply them in other areas of your life like your job or school or personal relationships. If you are like me, you are one of the many, many people who hate to do public speaking. To help overcome the nervousness and fear associated with it, I simply resort to looking at it like a competition. I practice what I need to present prior to the event so that it becomes second nature to me. If it is something that will be cause for discussion I think of all the points and counter points that will be brought up. Then, when the time comes, I just step into the ring and do my best. After all, if I can jump around and yell in front of strangers wearing those crazy pajamas we call uniforms, then stepping up in front of my peers in a business suit really isn’t that hard.
So if you have the opportunity, join in on a local event in your area, if nothing else just for the fun of it. Regardless if you win or lose, competition can always teach you something about yourself as a person, if you are willing to learn. Sometimes, it is not always what you would like to learn, but, it will always be something that will allow you to grow.

To add to that competition sparring helps give you live training as well as teaches you how to deal with resisting opponents. So sport does give back in many ways.

 

[miguksaram]

See above

 

[ATC]

I will of course agree that these techniques have been around,not much new under the sun, but how many tkdoin trained in slide in cover punch,or chamberless sidekicks as a s/d scenario.We see that training in the sport classes all the time.

Just about all the arts do this. Nothing new for the art at all.

 

[leadleg]

The first time I saw a cutkick it was a drawing from Bruce Lee, one of those stick style drawings he did,showing a straight line from the floor to the adversary. I never saw this kick in my shotokan, mooduk kwan, or hapkido training. The first time I saw this kick being taught it was Mr.Han Wan Lee after he came back from the olympics. So to me this kick was being taught from the sport, for the sport.
Also the way I was taught cover punch it was not just down block punch,it was slide in blocking hard and hooking(slightly) the roundkick while punching high on the hogu,contnueing forward with the body trying to knock over the fighter.We practiced this for sport never any other scenario ,ie s/d.
Master Dae San Lee taught us this as a technique being taught at OTC at the time.
The follow foot technique I only ever heard of was from sport fighting also, I was never taught this in any s/d or requirements.
So what I am trying to say is without sport training I doubt these tech.'s would have been praticed and refined as well as they have,hence the two way street between Kukki tech.'s and sport training.

 

[puunui]

Also the way I was taught cover punch it was not just down block punch,it was slide in blocking hard and hooking(slightly) the roundkick while punching high on the hogu,contnueing forward with the body trying to knock over the fighter.We practiced this for sport never any other scenario ,ie s/d. Master Dae San Lee taught us this as a technique being taught at OTC at the time.

Also the cover punch taught by Master Dae Sung LEE is that you step at an angle when punching, which if you took a picture, looks like a long wide stance. That is where the long wide stance came from, "sport"; it is not a traditional thing. The Shotokan practitioners did that during the sparring, and it got incorporated into the kata, because they did that step so much (from "sport") that they couldn't change.

The follow foot technique I only ever heard of was from sport fighting also, I was never taught this in any s/d or requirements.

Yoshitaka Sensei used to do the follow foot technique back in the 30's and 40's. He would put all his weight behind his punches and lunge deeply to make his strike, and then drag his back foot up so he could be in a short stance again.

And as discussed previously, "sport" has given Taekwondo (through Shotokan Karate) the rank system (so you can compete against opponents who are similarly skilled as you, just like today), the uniform, one step sparring, etc. If there were no "sport" element, then we all would be training in our loin cloths in our back yards doing only kata and hitting the makiwara.

 

[puunui]

Remember cover punch is just a low block followed by a punch

Cover punch is blocking and punching at the same time. Also, it doesn't have to be a low block, but the majority of the time it is, because the majority of kicks thrown in a taekwondo match is some variation of roundhouse kick to the body.

 

[leadleg]

Master Dae Sung Lee,sorry. The follow foot I am thinking of is to let your supporting foot slide or hop forward at the extension of the kick to bring you foreward 6 - 10 inches,cathing those fighters who slide just out of reach to counter.
Right now there are many coaches across the world trying out new ways to be faster, reach further, be more stealthy.......
Just for the sake of WTF olympic style sparring.
Which makes me think of the way a spin hook has evolved from a wheel like kick to what you see today in the sport with a straight back and up and over with the knees almost touching,stealthy

 

[terryl965]

Cover punch is blocking and punching at the same time. Also, it doesn't have to be a low block, but the majority of the time it is, because the majority of kicks thrown in a taekwondo match is some variation of roundhouse kick to the body.

Very few people land the two at the exact same time, but most of them are off by 1/10 of a secnd with the punch

 

[puunui]

Very few people land the two at the exact same time, but most of them are off by 1/10 of a secnd with the punch

If I had to choose, I would rather have the punch land 1/10 of a second before the block. Also, we try as much as possible to go deep and catch the kicking leg above the knee. We don't want to take the full force kick on the forearm, too many broken arms result from that. I know you know this, but blocking really is secondary in Taekwondo to avoidance through distance control and footwork. If you are blocking, then often times it is an indication that something went wrong.

 

[leadleg]

I think cover punch, being old news now, is a good way to teach the inexperienced fighter an out to backing up,better than say just closing.Has anyone ever taught this tech. as anything but sport related? Something similar would be closing in to cut the power from a punch or kick, but that is not as specific as the cover punch.

 

[terryl965]

You know one thing nobody has mention what the sport has given back, headaches, ego's and alot of politics inside TKD circle. For that the sport has done thing wrong for TKD but it all cannot be a gravy train.

 

[leadleg]

That is not the sport that is human nature,it is the same in buisness,school,every workplace.....
I like to coach,my athletes like to compete,we just go to the tournaments,then we go home and train without caring much about the bs.
I'll leave that to puunui and those who like the political arena,whoever is in charge is doing someone a favor and screwing someone else,round and round she goes....

 

[puunui]

You know one thing nobody has mention what the sport has given back, headaches, ego's and alot of politics inside TKD circle. For that the sport has done thing wrong for TKD but it all cannot be a gravy train.

That has nothing to do with "sport". Hapkido, Aikido, and almost every other martial art out there is mired in politics. It's just the way it is. Even in Sinmoo Hapkido, my art, there is all kinds of jockeying for position as to who is going to be GM Ji's rightful successor. To me, when GM Ji is gone, Sinmoo Hapkido will end up like the ITF and there will be no rightful successor. And even if there were one, odds are a substantial part of Sinmoo Hapkido members would not follow that person and instead will do their own thing. So all of these efforts are for nothing. And I also believe that GM Ji will live at least another 15-20 years, so who knows what will happen in that time.

 

[puunui]

I like to coach,my athletes like to compete,we just go to the tournaments,then we go home and train without caring much about the bs.
I'll leave that to puunui and those who like the political arena,whoever is in charge is doing someone a favor and screwing someone else,round and round she goes....

It's not that I like it so much as it is where I am at in the Taekwondo path. I wrote a series of articles about the phases of the journey as outlined in the Kukkiwon yudanja poomsae, with each dan having a specific focus. That was one of my thesis for Kukkiwon dan promotion. Maybe I will repost that at some point, if it hasn't already been posted here.