Avoid or invite confrontation?

[Daniel Sullivan]

This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:

"In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."

Where do YOU see the line on when it is/is not appropriate to use violence?

Carl

I did not comment directly on this in the other thread aside from that I was glad that it worked out for the poster.

As a general rule, inviting someone to 'step outside' is foolish. It tells me that the person doing the asking has something to prove.

Now, we don't know precisely what was being said. Who was the poster saying things to? Was he talking to a friend, engaging the offending patrok in conversation about the game, or just cheering for his team?

Was the offending patron making threats of bodilly harm? Or just being a general obnoxious drunk at a bar?

I don't really like dealing with obnoxious drunks (who does?) so I generally watch my television at home. A football game isn't worth the potential risks involved in an altercation with an unknown entity. Not having been there, I am not going to be too quick to judge the poster, as sometimes events like this take on a life of their own.

Daniel

 

[jthomas1600]

studentcarl and dancingalone posed scenarios that (at least in my mind) are drastically different. In the scenario studentcarl put forward he was insulted and then basically challenged the guy to a fight over it. I would think just walking away in that situation is the right thing to do. The right response to the scenario dancingalone put forward is probably also to walk away, but I'm not sure how many of us fathers and husbands would have done so. I certainly would not hold it against anyone for pounding the fool in that situation. I probably would have.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You were most likely in the wrong; so, what happened then?
Sean

Here's the whole narative.

In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom.

When I left, he was waiting for me outside and tried his best to punch me in the face, I just did long off the line roundhouse to his leg or long padduh chagi to his leg. He kept coming and I just kept kicking his leg to the point where he was in tears. Finally I felt like enough was enough and so I faked to his leg, which drew both his hands down, and he lifted up his front leg, and I came over the top with a punch to his nose. But at the last minute, I pulled the punch and didn't follow through. He stood there with his broken bent nose, tears in his eyes, and yelled out "you broke my nose!". One drop of blood came out of one nostril, followed a few seconds later with a gush of blood all over his shirt. At this point, the security guard came, and asked me if he should call the police, to which I responded, "no need, I think our discussion is over."

Daniel

 

[Tez3]

A bit off blaming StudentCarl for another actions, all he did was ask people's opinions on whether 'inviting' someone outside was a good idea or not!!

Thanks Daniel for posting up the original and sorting who posted it, now you can blame the person responsible instead of someone asking a genuine question which had lead to a good discussion until the blaming started.

 

[Archtkd]

Here's the whole narative.


Daniel

Inviting confrontation is one thing. Defending oneself against confrontation is another thing, from a moral, legal, social and so many other ways. Sorry for the strong language, but I think it's borderline juvenile for an adult to do the "lets step outside routine," following an exchange of nasty words. Step outside to what? Glory? Bravey? Redemption? Regret? I've seen unneccessary death in that kind of invitation.

 

[puunui]

Why did you have to say "If you wanted you can wait outside for me" Then his ego is hurt then feels challanged and now wants to fight and waits outside for you that's rubbish.

I felt like it at the time.

Was your ego hurt that made you say this comment and want to prove him wrong?

It wasn't about ego. It was about him bothering me.

What would it solve you hurt him he hurts you or both in jail or worse?

I hurt him, he didn't come close to hurting me, ad no one went to jail mainly because I didn't want him to go to jail. What I wanted was for him to stop bothering me and to understand that if he ever did that again, to someone else, then he might be taken down a road that he would like to be down. He basically was harassing me because I was wearing business attire and didn't look like a threat to him, since he was bigger, taller, heavier, younger and all of the things that in his mind gave him an advantage physically over me. And it did work by the way because his brother, who worked there, later told me that he liked to harass people and that he, the brother, was glad that I did what I did, but didn't take it that far, because his brother needed to be taught that lesson. And after that, the brother told me he never bothered anyone ever again because if I could do that to him, then maybe there are others that can do the same thing only much less mercifully. I saw that guy once a few years later at a bookstore and he told me "hi" in a pleasant uneasy way. I just looked at him, gave him the hawaiian hello (jut my chin out at him with a smile) and that was it.

I am all for self protection but fighting over some harsh words in my opinion is foolish.

ok.

 

[Tez3]

It's quite a common thing for people to step outside and have 'words'. If both sides are willing, able and no others join in I think it's probably no one elses business if they chose to settle differences like this. We don't have to approve but consensual fights aren't really a problem.

 

[Touch Of Death]

It's quite a common thing for people to step outside and have 'words'. If both sides are willing, able and no others join in I think it's probably no one elses business if they chose to settle differences like this. We don't have to approve but consensual fights aren't really a problem.

It's all fun and games until someone loses and eye! Then it's just hillarious.
Sean

 

[StudentCarl]

Interesting discussion despite the need for clarification. I left Puunui's name off because I wanted a discussion of the issue and didn't want it to be about him personally. I figured that those interested could dig up the thread, and I thought my wording was clear that I reporting something I read and not my own experience.

There is a self-defense forum, but I think there's value in discussing how the values, teachings, and skills of our art fit with real confrontations...in this case the decision of if and when it's appropriate to instigate a fight.

 

[searcher]

I use violence when there is "risk of death or permanent bodily harm," as stated in the State of Kansas personal defense guidelines. This is a touchy situation for those with a CCH, as here in Kansas, it is considered an armed conflict even if you do not draw your carry gun. So, for me to take it up a notch, it had better be pretty serious. Or I had better not be carrying.


I struggle with it on a daily basis and find it to be a razor sharp line that I am walking. Even more so, since this summer I will be working as a reserve deputy for the local SD. Hopefully, "pain compliance" will deter anyone from making it more than it needs to be. I try to stay away from areas where I will get myself in an altercation, with teh exception of the internet.

 

[puunui]

As a general rule, inviting someone to 'step outside' is foolish. It tells me that the person doing the asking has something to prove.

Well, that's just one more disagreement you have with the pioneers, including Hapkido GM JI Han Jae by the way. He has no problems with this sort of thing, as long as we don't injure anyone permanently. That is basically what this discussion is for me, comparing how MT members attitudes are similar and/or different from the practitioners that created the martial arts that we study.

 

[Balrog]

Good question. I struggle mentally with the line myself.

Illustration: I'm at a college football game with my wife and son. A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son. Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?

That would probably be considered excessive. However, wrapping him up in an armbar and holding him face down on the ground wouldn't, especially after you and your wife both file assault charges on him.

 

[puunui]

Where's your credibility as a teacher after that? Carl

How about when a student asks a teacher "How do you know that this will work in a self defense situation? Have you had to defend yourself before?" and the teacher answers "No, I've never had to defend myself. I've never even competed in a poomsae division at a tournament. That's why I say to walk away at all costs. All of this is unproven theory for me, but I ask that you put your life in my hands and trust that this spinning elbow one step sparring technique together with this non-kukkiwon dan certificate will save your life one day. Make sure you keep your hands up at all times."

Where's the credibility of the teacher after that?

 

[Balrog]

Rather than answer individual posts, I'm simply going to say that there are two statements that cover self-defense.

"As peaceably as possible, as forcibly as necessary."

"Perceive the way of nature and no force of man can harm you. Do not meet a wave head on: avoid it. You do not have to stop force: it is easier to redirect it. Learn more ways to preserve rather than destroy. Avoid rather than check. Check rather than hurt. Hurt rather than maim. Maim rather than kill. For all life is precious nor can any be replaced." - Master Kan

 

[Touch Of Death]

Well, that's just one more disagreement you have with the pioneers, including Hapkido GM JI Han Jae by the way. He has no problems with this sort of thing, as long as we don't injure anyone permanently. That is basically what this discussion is for me, comparing how MT members attitudes are similar and/or different from the practitioners that created the martial arts that we study.

The creators did not have to deal with the laws of any given state in the the U.S.; the authorities are whom we have to deal with after its all said and done, not GM Ji Han Jae.
Sean

 

[StudentCarl]

How about when a student asks a teacher "How do you know that this will work in a self defense situation? Have you had to defend yourself before?" and the teacher answers "No, I've never had to defend myself. I've never even competed in a poomsae division at a tournament. That's why I say to walk away at all costs. All of this is unproven theory for me, but I ask that you put your life in my hands and trust that this spinning elbow one step sparring technique together with this non-kukkiwon dan certificate will save your life one day. Make sure you keep your hands up at all times."

Where's the credibility of the teacher after that?

Guess my reference wasn't clear enough: I was suggesting that you'd lose credibility to teach self-control. I also suggest that consensual fighting and self-defense are not the same thing.

Back to the topic:
Puunui...since you've given a situation showing when you would start a fight, what sort of situation would you avoid a confrontation instead of escalating it?

 

[Touch Of Death]

How about when a student asks a teacher "How do you know that this will work in a self defense situation? Have you had to defend yourself before?" and the teacher answers "No, I've never had to defend myself. I've never even competed in a poomsae division at a tournament. That's why I say to walk away at all costs. All of this is unproven theory for me, but I ask that you put your life in my hands and trust that this spinning elbow one step sparring technique together with this non-kukkiwon dan certificate will save your life one day. Make sure you keep your hands up at all times."

Where's the credibility of the teacher after that?

While I don't personaly have this problem with my teacher, I don't think street fighting has anything to do with teaching.
Sean

 

[David43515]

It wasn't about ego. It was about him bothering me.

Sorry, but considering the situation I don`t see any difference. The guy said some things you didn`t like and you offered him a fight for it. People that smoke "bother" me. I change seats.

You say you GM doesn`t mind "as long as we don`t injure them permanatly". Do you have ESP or something that allows you to know how badly you`ll hurt the guy?(In all your training you`ve NEVER seen ANYONE get hit too hard by accident? Wow. ) For that matter did you know he wasn`t packing a gun? Or that his brother and couple friends wouldn`t be joining him to dance on your head?

I was young once and liked to put loudmouthes in thier place too. And I felt fine sticking up for weaker people involving myself in matters that didn`t concern me. I know where you`re coming from. I figured that if the guy is brave enought to talk the talk he should be able to walk the walk and if he gets his nose shoved in .....well that`s the price of being a jerk sometimes. But I`m older now with a wife and kids. And I know that if I get hurt in a fight I could`ve avoided I may not be able to work and take care of my family. Ditto if I hurt that guy and wind up going to jail or getting sued into bankrupcy. The vast majority of a-holes you meet just aren`t worth it. There`s a saying where I come from. "There are old bikers and bold bikers, but there ain`t no old bold bikers."

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sorry, but considering the situation I don`t see any difference. The guy said some things you didn`t like and you offered him a fight for it. People that smoke "bother" me. I change seats.

You say you GM doesn`t mind "as long as we don`t injure them permanatly". Do you have ESP or something that allows you to know how badly you`ll hurt the guy?(In all your training you`ve NEVER seen ANYONE get hit too hard by accident? Wow. ) For that matter did you know he wasn`t packing a gun? Or that his brother and couple friends wouldn`t be joining him to dance on your head?

I was young once and liked to put loudmouthes in thier place too. And I felt fine sticking up for weaker people involving myself in matters that didn`t concern me. I know where you`re coming from. I figured that if the guy is brave enought to talk the talk he should be able to walk the walk and if he gets his nose shoved in .....well that`s the price of being a jerk sometimes. But I`m older now with a wife and kids. And I know that if I get hurt in a fight I could`ve avoided I may not be able to work and take care of my family. Ditto if I hurt that guy and wind up going to jail or getting sued into bankrupcy. The vast majority of a-holes you meet just aren`t worth it. There`s a saying where I come from. "There are old bikers and bold bikers, but there ain`t no old bold bikers."

I pitty the student that is impressed by the fact that their teacher is out picking fights in a bar.
Sean

 

[puunui]

what sort of situation would you avoid a confrontation instead of escalating it?

That incident was a long time ago, almost 12 years ago. Different time and space. Today, I don't find myself in any fighting situations. It simply doesn't come up in my daily life. I'm sure that the pioneers also don't find themselves in too many physically confrontational situations either. But that doesn't mean that they avoided confrontations at all costs. If they did, Taekwondo would not have developed in the way that it did. Sensei Mas Oyama wrote about the student who shies away from confrontation, that he may impress some with his modesty, but in the end will end up getting surpassed by those who are not so "humble". I'll try and get out the exact quote later.