Avoid or invite confrontation?

[StudentCarl]

This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:

"In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."

Where do YOU see the line on when it is/is not appropriate to use violence?

Carl

 

[dancingalone]

Good question. I struggle mentally with the line myself.

Illustration: I'm at a college football game with my wife and son. A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son. Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?

 

[clfsean]

Avoid if possible & seek LEO to control is (to me) always choice #1.

If there's way #1 will happen, then finish before it starts with you on the downside of things.

 

[Tez3]

This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:

"In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."

Where do YOU see the line on when it is/is not appropriate to use violence?

Carl

It's not appropriate to use violence when you aren't sure you can win the fight. One should only take on people like this if you are sure you can beat them.

Always check for CCTV and potential witnesses if you are sure there are none that will bother you, rearrange his face while shouting 'don't hit me' and 'please don't hurt me', fools the witnesses into thinking he's attacking you. Make sure you put him in the recovery position.

This advice only partly tongue in cheek.

 

[terryl965]

Avoid at all possible, wish I was smart enough to know this thirty years ago.

Dancingalone the only way anybody can get under my skin and common sense leaves my mind if anybody soes anything to my wife or child, there is not enough Leo's around to stop me from hurting the person.

 

[TKD_Father]

The Master at my son's school tells this story.

A man without martial arts training walks down a sidewalk and is jumped by three thugs.

Another man with martial arts training walks down a sidewalk, sees three thugs, approaches and fights with them.

A true martial artist (the Master uses the term "Black Belt") walks down a sidewalk, sees three thugs, and crosses the street, then keeps walking.

 

[Tez3]

The Master at my son's school tells this story.

A man without martial arts training walks down a sidewalk and is jumped by three thugs.

Another man with martial arts training walks down a sidewalk, sees three thugs, approaches and fights with them.

A true martial artist (the Master uses the term "Black Belt") walks down a sidewalk, sees three thugs, and crosses the street, then keeps walking.

A good story and good advice but sometimes it is right to fight.

 

[andyjeffries]

Illustration: I'm at a college football game with my wife and son. A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son. Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?

I would say it depends on the push. If it's a bit of jostling because you're at a game and there's a lot of bodies in a small area then it's unfortunate. If there's space that the guy could have avoided pushing you, I'd say act (particularly because if he can get away with pushing you he might try to escalate and you have your wife and child with you).

Under UK law, he battered you first (physical contact) and you were acting in self-defence of yourself and your family. However, you have to stop when the threat is over, you can't jump on him and keep pounding him while he's out cold.

YMMV depending on where you live.

 

[leadleg]

If you look at it from a legal and moral standpoint and then act on that, you can manipulate the legal side but you will have to live with the moral

 

[Tez3]

Avoiding confrontation should be the aim but one should also be prepared to defend yourself and those you love, then only the thought of keeping them safe should be in your mind. Worry about the legalities later when your loved ones are safe and sound, there should be no moral dilemma in doing the right thing. Use reasonable force which includes deadly force if appropriate (all the UK laws allow that, I doubt it's much different else where) and no more.
If you can all walk away without a fight because you've taken all the precautions you can that's ideal but circumstances aren't always ideal so being prepared to do what you have to is wise. Hope for the best but expect the worst.

 

[dancingalone]

I would say it depends on the push. If it's a bit of jostling because you're at a game and there's a lot of bodies in a small area then it's unfortunate. If there's space that the guy could have avoided pushing you, I'd say act (particularly because if he can get away with pushing you he might try to escalate and you have your wife and child with you).

Under UK law, he battered you first (physical contact) and you were acting in self-defence of yourself and your family. However, you have to stop when the threat is over, you can't jump on him and keep pounding him while he's out cold.

YMMV depending on where you live.

When I say push, I don't mean an unintentional bump. It's a hostile action, perhaps not as dire as swinging for your head, but it's definitely an attack.

But let's take the scenario another step further. Is the push and drinking throwing sufficient to justify fighting, even if the drunk takes no further aggression? In other words has the fight already started in your mind once he placed his hands on you?

 

[leadleg]

Not legally,once he is not a threat,you cannot attack. I have read many of your posts, I believe if you really thought you were in danger this guy might still be recovering.It sound like you have I shoulda kicked his @ remorse

 

[oaktree]

This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:

"In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."

Where do YOU see the line on when it is/is not appropriate to use violence?

Carl

So what if he says something that puts you down. Learn to brush it off and enjoy the game. Why did you have to say "If you wanted you can wait outside for me"
Then his ego is hurt then feels challanged and now wants to fight and waits outside for you that's rubbish.

Was your ego hurt that made you say this comment and want to prove him wrong?

What would it solve you hurt him he hurts you or both in jail or worse?

I am all for self protection but fighting over some harsh words in my opinion is foolish.

 

[Manny]

If I am sitting in a bar and some guy next to me starts to molest me, I just change of place and enjoy the game, if this guys follows me and sticks molest me then I pay the drinks and go away.

IF this guy then touches me or use force to molest me then..... I break his nose period.

Something hapened me in a crow rodeo once, I was heading to the rodeo with my girl who was wearing very tight jeans, and in some point I saw he was a little unconfortable, I asked her what happened and she told me nothing, however she was very upset and asked again, what happened and she told me some guy spank me in the ......s, I went nuts!!! and told her Who did it? who did it? In a peaceful manner she told... Don't know it's so crowd here!! C'mon tell me who did it? and she asnwer againg, What for? does it really matter? Are you gona fight because this? What if the guy has a gun or a knife or he's coming with a bunch of pals?

Latter I understand her, it really did not matter the spank, the most important for her was to ignore it to avoid a fight, now this girl is my wife.

Manny

 

[Touch Of Death]

This came up in another thread, and poses a question separate from KKW vs. sport:

"In fact, the last time I got into a physical altercation, I was at a bar watching Monday Night Football. I was wearing business attire and I was sitting next to some local guy who was taller, bigger and younger than me wearing a lumberjack shirt, ripped jeans, and a baseball cap. Every time I would say something he would say some crap to put me down. After the first quarter, I told him that I was leaving now, but if he wanted to he could wait outside for me while I used the bathroom. When I left, he was waiting for me outside..."

Where do YOU see the line on when it is/is not appropriate to use violence?

Carl

You were most likely in the wrong; so, what happened then?
Sean

 

[bluewaveschool]

You were most likely in the wrong; so, what happened then?
Sean

Poster in question says he met the guy outside and broke the guy's nose. And StudentCarl isn't the person this happened to.

 

[StudentCarl]

It wasn't me. I copied it from the KKW vs. Sport thread. I think instigating a fight is asking for all kinds of trouble, even if you wipe the floor with the guy. All it takes is a decent lawyer pointing out that you are an experienced martial artist, school owner, are called "master", have a tournament fighting record, etc. to help buy Joe-Bob a whole new set of teeth, bad coverage for you in the newspapers, and more. And that's not to mention that it completely undercuts what we teach about self-control. Where's your credibility as a teacher after that?

Carl

 

[andyjeffries]

When I say push, I don't mean an unintentional bump. It's a hostile action, perhaps not as dire as swinging for your head, but it's definitely an attack.

But let's take the scenario another step further. Is the push and drinking throwing sufficient to justify fighting, even if the drunk takes no further aggression? In other words has the fight already started in your mind once he placed his hands on you?

There shouldn't be that much gap between the push and your defence ;-)

The fight has kinda started when he put his hands on you, at that point there shouldn't be enough of a gap for him to "take no further aggression" unless he's unable to do so.

 

[Archtkd]

Good question. I struggle mentally with the line myself.

Illustration: I'm at a college football game with my wife and son. A drunken fan of the opposing team throws an ice cold drink at my wife and pushes me into my 4 year old son. Aside from any legal repercussions, is this sufficient provocation to rearrange the drunk's face?

"Throw at," , "pushes me". That sounds like an attack, but I think I'd walk away -- albeit very, very reluctantly -- to shield my wife and son from further potential violence. The rearrangment would immediately occur if the football hooligan followed me.

 

[Nomad]

If I had sufficient awareness to see the push coming, I'd make sure he paid a price during the push itself, but likely wouldn't escalate the conflict. As for throwing a drink on my wife... well, then it'd be me holding her back from hurting him, not the other way around.