Arts that teach knife and gun defense

[Gweilo]

My instructor is retired army. The knife & gun self defense he teaches is what he learned in the army. Still, I don’t feel like there is any realistic gun defense unless you happen to be behind the guy with the gun. Of course I know nothing about guns except a healthy fear so I could be wrong.

As for knife, I’m a bit more optimistic. That may be partially due to the old style I trained with. It certainly wasn’t a McDojo as the members didn’t have a set fee. The suggested donation was $2/week (mid 1990’s) but you weren’t turned away if you couldn’t pay. It was non-competitive and the whole focus was in self-defense. We had a drill called “walk the street” which involved everyone lined up in two rows facing each other. One person would be at the end of the row with their back to the rows. My Sensei would pick 1-3 attackers and give some or all of them knives and then when everything was hidden the student would turn around and “walk down the street.” The student would have to defend against whatever came at them. We used wooden knives so we didn’t actually get hurt, but it was a very intimidating drill. We often did it outside after dark with only the headlights on one car pointed at us to see by (which often. Could be blinding too). I felt like this was a fairly decent way of testing knife self defense. It was always stressed that if it was a robbery of some sort, generally the best way to get out alive is to just give the guy your wallet.


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IMO, the type of drill you quote, is the best type of knife defense available, many arts are trained for one on one senario, many arts train for a student trained to receive one student, the key I beleive is unexpected multiple drill, we train like this in systema, we all line up facing the wall with arms behind our back, the instructor will explain the drill, but will give one or more students a knife, he will then say, if you was given the knife, consil it, then everyone walks around the room, if you do not have the kniife, you job is to see if you can recognise who has the knife, if you have the knife, your job is to target one or two people, the instructor will say live, then it is down to the individual knife holders when to attack, no time limit, so to soeak

 

[skribs]

Then there's Indiana Jones.

 

[jobo]

Trying disarming a permanent marker from a partner and see how many marks you end up with.

training works best with a level of jeopardy,, it makes you concentrate more and try harder if whatever your trying to avoid is at least uncomfortable and better moderately painful

i've noted with ''soccer players'' over the years that their balance improves 10 fold if they are playing on a car park full of broken class and dog muck

 

[drop bear]

Then there's Indiana Jones.

Indiana Jones is funny though. He has always been used as proof that gun beats sword.

But in Indiana Jones world whip beats gun.

 

[Buka]

I’m looking forward to reading what you have to say.

I agree with everything you said, Tony. Well said, too.

It all boils down to everybody teaching what they know. Or maybe better put, teaching what they've been taught. Maybe learning from multiple sources, multiple different sources, is the way to go for a more well rounded knowledge base. The problem is, sometimes we don't realize that what we are learning from an instructor might not be the most tactically sound subject matter. It certainly wasn't in my case. My, God, some of the stuff I was taught would have gotten people killed. Especially concerning firearms and edged weapons. And there I was, a young man, passing it on to others.

Serious stuff, this gun and knife thing. No clear "all in one" answers.

A dozen of my friends have been shot. Most of them are/were police officers, but not all. One was shot on two different occasions. One was shot seventeen times. Seventeen. One was shot point blank in the chest and one point blank in the head. They all survived, they are all doing just fine for the most part. the one shot point blank in the head moved at the last second, the round bouncing off his skull, he was out of the hospital in a couple days. All of them told me that getting shot doesn't really hurt as much as you would think. But healing from being shot hurts like hell. I hope and pray I never find that out first hand.

Other than Martial Arts and fitness, I have more training in handguns than with any other thing in my life. I had a permit to carry long before I became a cop. I was pretty well trained by an experienced friend. That very first time I shot was at his gun club. He had a duffel bag full of pistols, I shot a dozen different pistols that first day, wheel guns, revolvers, big guns, small guns, Saturday night specials, we were there for hours. I joined his gun club the next day and continued training with him and others. But we were just target shooting. Target shooting is just that, it's not combat shooting. But you have to start somewhere.

Several years later I became a police officer. We were Federal and had an indoor range right there in our building. We shot four days a week, sometimes five, several times a day. We were lucky to have an unlimited budget and never used reloads, only the best factory ammunition. But while we still shot targets, we were being trained in combat shooting, shoot/don't shoot training - a large white screen was on the range, with film projected on it. Various scenarios and ambushes were seen and you had to shoot the screen....or not. You had to determine background and make sure it was safe to engage the enemy. You were fooled a lot, purposely. It's how you learned.

We had a Hogan's Alley set up. Pop up targets, except some of them weren't targets, they were innocents, we shot targets that moved and came at you. We shot under normal conditions, we shot under smoke, with and without gas masks, we shot under strobe lights, incredibly loud noises that came out of nowhere. We shot right handed, left handed, two handed, shot with one hand secured behind your back or taped to your side like you were wounded. We learned to reload using your teeth to jack the slide on an automatic if an arm was injured and useless, we shot on the run, we shot on the crawl, we shot from barricades. We would do the same things at an outdoor ranged, sometimes in the summer, sometimes in the winter. Note - shooting in wet snow really sucks.

Anyway, I did this for thirteen years, the four day a week shooting thing that is, other years I didn't shoot as much, maybe a few times a month....so I'll start with handguns. I really don't know a lot about handguns, other than how to use them. I wouldn't know how to fix one or alter one. I don't know a lot about the companies that make them, I can't identify one I've never used, I don't know their history. But I seriously HATE guns. Honest to God, I hate the f'n things. Because there are too many of them in our country and people are f'n crazy and killing people or shooting up crowds. That being said....

Before I started the training, we had a lot class time discussing law and the use of deadly force. When you teach anything about guns and knives, you need classes on the law and the use of deadly force as it pertains to where you live. If you have to use a gun in defense of your life, you are in for another battle with the courts. That can be scary.

Nobody ever got shot with a blue, plastic training pistol.

When I first started teaching handgun retention and close quarter weapons disarms, I was teaching other cops. Guys and gals who had to learn to shoot in many of the same ways that I did. They carried a handgun every day. One of the first things you learn is "every place you go there will always be at least one firearm. Always."

When it came time, some years later, to teach my advanced students handguns disarms.....I wasn't really sure how to do it. How could I teach these nice, young men and woman who trained their butts off day in and day out - how to disarm somebody if they've never held an actual gun? Or even been around one?

Fortunately, I had resources. I hired a friend, the hand gun trainer on Boston P.D, to come down the dojo for my advanced guys. He held a three day safety course. After the safety classes, off we went to an outdoor range, where they learned to target shoot. With a dozen different guns. Everybody wanted to use my wife's Uzi pistol, which was a wedding present from me. And they all did. There were several days of range time, each one a little bit better than the last. They were learning how guns felt, how guns shot, how heavy or light they were, what kind of kick they had compared to another, how to break them down and clean them, how a safety on a gun worked, how different people held different guns. And all the while, safety, safety, safety. If you're ever around anyone who treats a firearm in a laissez faire manner....get the hell away from them. Immediately.

After their initial introductions to guns, then, and only then, did I teach disarms. We used the blue, plastic training guns. One with a trigger guard, one without. You have to start, IMO, with the one that has no trigger guard, for obvious safety reasons. But - in real life you can, and should, again IMO, rip a guys finger off if he's pulled a gun on you and hasn't already shot you. I mean, fair is fair. F him and the horse he rode in on.

Eventually, we used actual firearms, ones they had shot, to teach disarms. And, remember, these were my advanced students, most had been training in the arts for many years. And one of the very first things they had been taught in those safety classes, was how to check a gun, how to pass a gun to another person so he/she can see if it's safe, and how to protect the safety of everyone around you. In my opinion, if you don't teach the law and the safe practice commandments of firearms.....you shouldn't be teaching anything to do with firearms. If you don't have that, go get it. Hire professionals to come to your dojo. They'll come if you pay them.

There is a difference in feel to a blue, plastic training gun and an actual handgun. And if the blue one is all you know....well, you should be all set if someone pulls a blue, plastic training gun on you.

I don't think Martial Arts instructors should teach handgun disarms. I don't think they should teach swimming either. Some of the things I've seen in dojos were frightening. Some of the things I was taught as a young black belt were horrible, or ridiculous, and dangerous. But the folks who were teaching me didn't know that. They were just passing on what they were taught. And we ate it up. It was just so cool. And there I was, a young black belt, eventually teaching the same nonsense to others.

So be careful out there. Try to get as much practical experience as you can from professionals who use guns. Guns are nasty, violent things.

Knives are a whole different thing. I'll bore you with what I know, which ain't much, later.

 

[skribs]

And all the while, safety, safety, safety. If you're ever around anyone who treats a firearm in a laissez faire manner....get the hell away from them. Immediately.

I just wanted to separate this out and highlight it.

 

[skribs]

Eventually, we used actual firearms, ones they had shot, to teach disarms. And, remember, these were my advanced students, most had been training in the arts for many years. And one of the very first things they had been taught in those safety classes, was how to check a gun, how to pass a gun to another person so he/she can see if it's safe, and how to protect the safety of everyone around you. In my opinion, if you don't teach the law and the safe practice commandments of firearms.....you shouldn't be teaching anything to do with firearms. If you don't have that, go get it. Hire professionals to come to your dojo. They'll come if you pay them.

This actually scares me. It sounds like you were violating at least 3 of the 4 major gun safety rules.

1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
2. Don't point your gun at anything you intend to shoot.
3. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger until ready to shoot.
4. Be aware of your target and what is behind it.

Practicing disarms with a real weapon means you are pointing a real weapon at a friendly. That is a huge no-no in every firearm circle I've ever been in.

I would much rather use airsoft (with safety goggles), a nerf gun, or a water gun.

 

[skribs]

Fortunately, I had resources. I hired a friend, the hand gun trainer on Boston P.D, to come down the dojo for my advanced guys. He held a three day safety course. After the safety classes, off we went to an outdoor range, where they learned to target shoot. With a dozen different guns. Everybody wanted to use my wife's Uzi pistol, which was a wedding present from me. And they all did. There were several days of range time, each one a little bit better than the last. They were learning how guns felt, how guns shot, how heavy or light they were, what kind of kick they had compared to another, how to break them down and clean them, how a safety on a gun worked, how different people held different guns. And all the while, safety, safety, safety. If you're ever around anyone who treats a firearm in a laissez faire manner....get the hell away from them. Immediately.

After their initial introductions to guns, then, and only then, did I teach disarms. We used the blue, plastic training guns. One with a trigger guard, one without. You have to start, IMO, with the one that has no trigger guard, for obvious safety reasons. But - in real life you can, and should, again IMO, rip a guys finger off if he's pulled a gun on you and hasn't already shot you. I mean, fair is fair. F him and the horse he rode in on.

This is awesome. I haven't been to the range in a long time and I need to go again. I'm going to disagree with you when you say that you shouldn't teach disarms if people don't know how to use the gun. But I'm going to agree with you that it's better if they do know.

 

[Gweilo]

@Buka , i never knew theses things about you, but respect to you, there is training and there is experience, all we can do is pass it in, or pay it forward as they seem to say now days, knowledge is king, and a king you are, god bless my brother

 

[Buka]

This actually scares me. It sounds like you were violating at least 3 of the 4 major gun safety rules.

1. Treat all guns as if they are loaded.
2. Don't point your gun at anything you intend to shoot.
3. Keep your finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger until ready to shoot.
4. Be aware of your target and what is behind it.

Practicing disarms with a real weapon means you are pointing a real weapon at a friendly. That is a huge no-no in every firearm circle I've ever been in.

I would much rather use airsoft (with safety goggles), a nerf gun, or a water gun.

I can’t disagree. But it is what it is.
Or rather, it was what it was.
The pistols were disabled, but still, you are correct.

 

[skribs]

I can’t disagree. But it is what it is.
Or rather, it was what it was.
The pistols were disabled, but still, you are correct.

Well you could've mentioned that!

 

[Buka]

Well you could've mentioned that!

I guess I should have, but your points were correct.

 

[hoshin1600]

i agree with @Buka. i feel that if your instructor is teaching gun disarms without training all aspects of firearms then its most likely garbage. that pass down from teacher to the next guy to the next guy concept is important. i remember helping my own instructor teach "seminars" on things he had no business doing. but i didnt know any better at the time and either did he. i think that is the crux of the problem. just because you are an expert in one thing doesnt mean your qualified in something else. i have seen so many people who do this. i dont hate guns but they scare the heck out of me. while i enjoy shooting, i would not have one in my home. (i have kids) i have lived 50 something years without needing one, i figure i can go another 30 without one as well. i know people that carry firearms that do not have safety's and it makes my skin crawl being around them.

knives on the other hand,, i carry one everyday, been doing so since i was maybe 8. i use them andi train with them, they are an extension of me. i do believe that like guns 99.99 % of training out there is bogus hand me down useless crap. i put the same qualifications of knives as Buka did with guns, train with it, know them inside and out, how to handle safely, how they are used and how they will be used against you. and i mean how will they really be used against you not false perceptions. Know what they are capable of and what they are not capable of, know the laws in your area and what to expect from the law if you ever use one. the best i can say here is that you should be training in the most realistic way you can, simulating everything you can right down to the adrenaline dump and emotional states.

 

[Buka]

i agree with @Buka. i feel that if your instructor is teaching gun disarms without training all aspects of firearms then its most likely garbage. that pass down from teacher to the next guy to the next guy concept is important. i remember helping my own instructor teach "seminars" on things he had no business doing. but i didnt know any better at the time and either did he. i think that is the crux of the problem. just because you are an expert in one thing doesnt mean your qualified in something else. i have seen so many people who do this. i dont hate guns but they scare the heck out of me. while i enjoy shooting, i would not have one in my home. (i have kids) i have lived 50 something years without needing one, i figure i can go another 30 without one as well. i know people that carry firearms that do not have safety's and it makes my skin crawl being around them.

knives on the other hand,, i carry one everyday, been doing so since i was maybe 8. i use them andi train with them, they are an extension of me. i do believe that like guns 99.99 % of training out there is bogus hand me down useless crap. i put the same qualifications of knives as Buka did with guns, train with it, know them inside and out, how to handle safely, how they are used and how they will be used against you. and i mean how will they really be used against you not false perceptions. Know what they are capable of and what they are not capable of, know the laws in your area and what to expect from the law if you ever use one. the best i can say here is that you should be training in the most realistic way you can, simulating everything you can right down to the adrenaline dump and emotional states.

That “ bogus hand me down useless crap” you speak of, that was me teaching that back in the day!

Man, I even had belts in bogus hand me down crap.
I need to put that on my Resume.

 

[hoshin1600]

That “ bogus hand me down useless crap” you speak of, that was me teaching that back in the day!

Man, I even had belts in bogus hand me down crap.
I need to put that on my Resume.

for anyone that has been around for 30+ years and is honest with themselves , we"ve all been there done that. but thats the evolution of the art and the learning arch of people. thats why "old masters" are important. they can tell us.. "back when i was young and stupid, i used to......"

 

[skribs]

i agree with @Buka. i feel that if your instructor is teaching gun disarms without training all aspects of firearms then its most likely garbage. that pass down from teacher to the next guy to the next guy concept is important. i remember helping my own instructor teach "seminars" on things he had no business doing. but i didnt know any better at the time and either did he. i think that is the crux of the problem. just because you are an expert in one thing doesnt mean your qualified in something else. i have seen so many people who do this. i dont hate guns but they scare the heck out of me. while i enjoy shooting, i would not have one in my home. (i have kids) i have lived 50 something years without needing one, i figure i can go another 30 without one as well. i know people that carry firearms that do not have safety's and it makes my skin crawl being around them.

knives on the other hand,, i carry one everyday, been doing so since i was maybe 8. i use them andi train with them, they are an extension of me. i do believe that like guns 99.99 % of training out there is bogus hand me down useless crap. i put the same qualifications of knives as Buka did with guns, train with it, know them inside and out, how to handle safely, how they are used and how they will be used against you. and i mean how will they really be used against you not false perceptions. Know what they are capable of and what they are not capable of, know the laws in your area and what to expect from the law if you ever use one. the best i can say here is that you should be training in the most realistic way you can, simulating everything you can right down to the adrenaline dump and emotional states.

I mean, NFL Defensive Back coaches teach the players how to defend against Wide Receivers, but the DBs don't go out and run routes. Most baseball players that know how to hit a ball well aren't proficient in throwing the ball for others to hit. The guys who freestyle dive with sharks don't try and bite each other when they explain the technique for directing sharks away from you (I hope).

I think it makes it better when you do know how to use the weapon, but I don't think it's a prerequisite to learn the techniques to defend against it.

 

[Prostar]

Have you looked at Brahm Frank? I did his seminar twice and was very impressed with his techniques and common sense approach.
Bram Frank

 

[Buka]

IMO, the type of drill you quote, is the best type of knife defense available, many arts are trained for one on one senario, many arts train for a student trained to receive one student, the key I beleive is unexpected multiple drill, we train like this in systema, we all line up facing the wall with arms behind our back, the instructor will explain the drill, but will give one or more students a knife, he will then say, if you was given the knife, consil it, then everyone walks around the room, if you do not have the kniife, you job is to see if you can recognise who has the knife, if you have the knife, your job is to target one or two people, the instructor will say live, then it is down to the individual knife holders when to attack, no time limit, so to soeak

I really like the concept of that drill. I’ll bet it’s kind of fun, too.

 

[skribs]

I really like the concept of that drill. I’ll bet it’s kind of fun, too.

My favorite classes are where we get to break away from doing WT sparring and do some other sparring. 2-on-1 or 3-on-1 with WT rules is always fun, so is when we get to freestyle spar.

That's when it feels more like a game and less like training.

 

[jobo]

I mean, NFL Defensive Back coaches teach the players how to defend against Wide Receivers, but the DBs don't go out and run routes. Most baseball players that know how to hit a ball well aren't proficient in throwing the ball for others to hit. The guys who freestyle dive with sharks don't try and bite each other when they explain the technique for directing sharks away from you (I hope).

I think it makes it better when you do know how to use the weapon, but I don't think it's a prerequisite to learn the techniques to defend against it.

well the shark one works as an analogy, if someone is training me to do something with binary out comes, ie live/die. then i think that them being able to demonstrate it against a real shark or a ''real knife man'' is a prerequisite for training

if you went for '' shark training '' and the instructor said, ''no ive never done this with a real shark, i read it in a book and made the rest up myself'' then you should be making your excuses and leaving+

now sharks are just sharks, they have much the same attributes, knife men on the other hand come in many flavours, expressly some are skilled using a knife and some are just slashers and then an infinite number of variations in between. your instructor needs to know how to use a knife effectively in order to instruct you in how to deal with someone who knows how to use a knife effectively