Arts that teach knife and gun defense

[drop bear]

I love that and the variations on it. Better turned out (as he showed, and is common in most of Aikido, but not the way it’s first taught in NGA).

Yeah I could never throw anyone with it. But for basic taking crap out of people's hands it works pretty well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah I could never throw anyone with it. But for basic taking crap out of people's hands it works pretty well.

My view (and what I teach) is that the fall is an escape. “In the street”, it (and similar techniques) is a lock/strip/break, not a throw. That’s easier for most students to “get” when we do the technique from the other side of the hand.

 

[skribs]

Yeah I could never throw anyone with it. But for basic taking crap out of people's hands it works pretty well.

If I start with a V-Lock against one of our TKD students, 90% of the time it works. If I start with a V-Lock against our Hapkido students, it works maybe 10% of the time. However, if it doesn't work, I can usually transition into something that has a higher success rate.

Similarly, if I start with that other technique (the one I transitioned into in the above paragraph) it will probably work 10% of the time. If the V-Lock becomes available as a result of their counter, then I have a higher success rate with the V-Lock.

 

[skribs]

My view (and what I teach) is that the fall is an escape. “In the street”, it (and similar techniques) is a lock/strip/break, not a throw. That’s easier for most students to “get” when we do the technique from the other side of the hand.

What do you mean by "the fall is an escape"?

 

[drop bear]

What do you mean by "the fall is an escape"?

You go to the ground to escape the lock.

The big issue is that a broken wrist in the middle of a fight isn't as big an issue as it is if we are just standing around.

And so for me I tried to ram the thing until I heard popping sounds but would never get the guy over leaving me dangling in arms reach with two hands down and my head exposed.

 

[skribs]

You go to the ground to escape the lock.

The big issue is that a broken wrist in the middle of a fight isn't as big an issue as it is if we are just standing around.

And so for me I tried to ram the thing until I heard popping sounds but would never get the guy over leaving me dangling in arms reach with two hands down and my head exposed.

Well at least he only has one arm, and usually you're twisting his body in such a way that he can't deliver a proper strike with it. I've had some of my fellow students ask "what if they punch you with their free hand?" So I put them in the wristlock and they can't turn into it to punch. I think this is the big idea with wrist locks. The technique itself may or may not take the person down, but it twists them around and forces them to reset.

I have had to tell some of the new students that if they're too stubborn for me to take them down then they'll probably get hurt.

 

[drop bear]

Well at least he only has one arm, and usually you're twisting his body in such a way that he can't deliver a proper strike with it. I've had some of my fellow students ask "what if they punch you with their free hand?" So I put them in the wristlock and they can't turn into it to punch. I think this is the big idea with wrist locks. The technique itself may or may not take the person down, but it twists them around and forces them to reset.

I have had to tell some of the new students that if they're too stubborn for me to take them down then they'll probably get hurt.

Yeah but you have no arms. You are throwing them in the direction they are going to punch from.

It is definitely something you need to abandon if it stalls at any point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What do you mean by "the fall is an escape"?

The untrained person won’t go with the “throw”, so it doesn’t become a throw. In the dojo, the fall releases the torque on the wrist, so escapes the lock (temporarily).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You go to the ground to escape the lock.

The big issue is that a broken wrist in the middle of a fight isn't as big an issue as it is if we are just standing around.

And so for me I tried to ram the thing until I heard popping sounds but would never get the guy over leaving me dangling in arms reach with two hands down and my head exposed.

From the other side of the hand, you’re more protected. The lock (essentially the same effect on the other guy) is mostly from pulling, then, so you also have more space. A bit trickier to get to that grip, though.

 

[skribs]

It is definitely something you need to abandon if it stalls at any point.

That's true of any Hapkido technique.

If we stall for more than a half second at any point, our Master yells "you died, try it again." If we take more than 2-3 transitions and we still haven't effected a take-down, same thing: "you died, try it again."

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's true of any Hapkido technique.

If we stall for more than a half second at any point, our Master yells "you died, try it again." If we take more than 2-3 transitions and we still haven't effected a take-down, same thing: "you died, try it again."

I have to say, I'm not fond of that. I don't want students learning to just stop when things aren't working. If they're controlling the other person/defending themselves, I'll let them keep going until a teachable point is reached. If they aren't controlling/defending, the other person should be letting them know by their response (hitting, pulling free, etc.).

 

[drop bear]

I have to say, I'm not fond of that. I don't want students learning to just stop when things aren't working. If they're controlling the other person/defending themselves, I'll let them keep going until a teachable point is reached. If they aren't controlling/defending, the other person should be letting them know by their response (hitting, pulling free, etc.).

Yeah but from that position you wouldn't want to be hanging around very long.

 

[skribs]

I have to say, I'm not fond of that. I don't want students learning to just stop when things aren't working. If they're controlling the other person/defending themselves, I'll let them keep going until a teachable point is reached. If they aren't controlling/defending, the other person should be letting them know by their response (hitting, pulling free, etc.).

Usually if we fail the other person's attack is continuing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but from that position you wouldn't want to be hanging around very long.

Agreed. It's a target of opportunity - if it shows up and you happen to get that grip, it's nice. Otherwise, on to something safer.

 

[wab25]

I'm going to disagree with you when you say that you shouldn't teach disarms if people don't know how to use the gun.

I mean, NFL Defensive Back coaches teach the players how to defend against Wide Receivers, but the DBs don't go out and run routes. Most baseball players that know how to hit a ball well aren't proficient in throwing the ball for others to hit. The guys who freestyle dive with sharks don't try and bite each other when they explain the technique for directing sharks away from you (I hope).

I think it makes it better when you do know how to use the weapon, but I don't think it's a prerequisite to learn the techniques to defend against it.

NFL Defensive Backs won't suddenly turn into wide receivers needing to run routes. Most baseball players won't suddenly need to pitch.

When teaching a gun disarm, the goal is to get the gun from the bad guy. Now what? You have suddenly become the guy with the gun. Go back to your rules about handling a gun:

• Treat all guns as if they are loaded.

• Don't point your gun at anything you intend to shoot.

• Keep your finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger until ready to shoot.

• Be aware of your target and what is behind it.

If your student disarms the other guy, but starts waving the gun around at innocent bystanders, your student is still responsible for the ones he shoots, intentionally or not. With no gun training, how is your student supposed to make sure the gun is safe? Do they know how to put the safety on? Unload the gun?

Once you take the gun, the fight might just be getting started. If your student doesn't know how to use it, or how to keep it, it might get taken back from them. Or the guy, may have another gun or a knife...

Then there is the legal side. When the cops show up, your student would be the one holding the gun.

If you are going to teach a gun disarm... I side with Buka... you should first teach them how to use it, how to be safe with it, how to unload it, and what to do when law enforcement shows up... which involves knowing and teaching the local laws about weapons and self defense.

 

[skribs]

NFL Defensive Backs won't suddenly turn into wide receivers needing to run routes. Most baseball players won't suddenly need to pitch.

When teaching a gun disarm, the goal is to get the gun from the bad guy. Now what? You have suddenly become the guy with the gun. Go back to your rules about handling a gun:

If your student disarms the other guy, but starts waving the gun around at innocent bystanders, your student is still responsible for the ones he shoots, intentionally or not. With no gun training, how is your student supposed to make sure the gun is safe? Do they know how to put the safety on? Unload the gun?

Once you take the gun, the fight might just be getting started. If your student doesn't know how to use it, or how to keep it, it might get taken back from them. Or the guy, may have another gun or a knife...

Then there is the legal side. When the cops show up, your student would be the one holding the gun.

If you are going to teach a gun disarm... I side with Buka... you should first teach them how to use it, how to be safe with it, how to unload it, and what to do when law enforcement shows up... which involves knowing and teaching the local laws about weapons and self defense.

For one, we're not just talking about gun disarms, but knife disarms as well. A lot of disarm techniques end up with the weapon on the ground, not in your hands. I'm not saying people shouldn't learn how to use those weapons, but that if they don't know how to use the weapon it doesn't mean they can't learn how to disarm it.

As to the legal side, that's going to be the same whether they're trained or not. It's also something I've never heard of being an issue. It's also going to be the same if you use a gun in self-defense. It's just baseless fear-mongering to make people scared to defend themselves.

 

[wab25]

A lot of disarm techniques end up with the weapon on the ground, not in your hands.

Cool. Then what? You just shake hands with the other guy and you both walk away, leaving a loaded gun on the ground? What exactly do you think is going to happen when a guy pulls a weapon on you and you successfully knock it to the ground?

Why not add in weapon safety and basic weapon use when teaching your disarms? It is much easier to disarm people who have no idea how to use the weapon you are disarming... which makes for poor training. At the very least, teaching them to use the weapon properly, would give you a better opportunity for training.

As to the legal side, that's going to be the same whether they're trained or not. It's also something I've never heard of being an issue. It's also going to be the same if you use a gun in self-defense.

In the last few years, there have been many instances of weapons being used and whether it was in self defense or not has made some pretty big headlines. There is a big chance that there will be legal issues if a weapon is used, no matter who brought it. When the cops show up, how you respond, what you say and what you do with the weapon has a big impact in how you are treated.

Yes, that is all the same whether you are trained or not. But if you are training people, why would you not include covering the basics of self defense law in your local area?

 

[skribs]

Cool. Then what? You just shake hands with the other guy and you both walk away, leaving a loaded gun on the ground? What exactly do you think is going to happen when a guy pulls a weapon on you and you successfully knock it to the ground?

You use the other martial arts skills you've been taught. I thought this would have been obvious. The fact you're bringing it up as a counterpoint suggests you're just here to argue and not actually thinking through what you're saying.

Why not add in weapon safety and basic weapon use when teaching your disarms? It is much easier to disarm people who have no idea how to use the weapon you are disarming... which makes for poor training. At the very least, teaching them to use the weapon properly, would give you a better opportunity for training.

Because there's only so much training time. The more stuff you teach, the less time you spend on each of it.

In the last few years, there have been many instances of weapons being used and whether it was in self defense or not has made some pretty big headlines. There is a big chance that there will be legal issues if a weapon is used, no matter who brought it. When the cops show up, how you respond, what you say and what you do with the weapon has a big impact in how you are treated.

Yes, that is all the same whether you are trained or not. But if you are training people, why would you not include covering the basics of self defense law in your local area?

For the same reason I tell people "go to your doctor" when they ask questions about an injury. I'm not qualified to give legal advice.

 

[wab25]

You use the other martial arts skills you've been taught. I thought this would have been obvious.

It sounds like you feel that the weapon is now "out of play" since it has been knocked out of his hand. I would expect that he would regain that weapon as fast as possible. I don't think he will forget about it, take up a stance and dance around. If you don't quickly secure the weapon, he will, and you get to try that disarm again. (except that this time, he is ready for it)

Because there's only so much training time. The more stuff you teach, the less time you spend on each of it.

You could get a bunch of kids, that have no experience at all using the weapons, to hold them so that you could practice your disarms. But, I doubt that will be very good preparation for actually using those techniques. The better you teach them to use the weapon, the better training partners they will be.

I also don't think it takes all that much time to show them how to keep their finger off the trigger, and control where you are pointing it, once retained. Showing them how to put the safety on, now that could take hours... and you would need to dedicate a few weeks to show them how to unload it.

Really, we are talking about taking what, 10 minutes to explain basic gun safety and show them how to check that a gun is unloaded. Then, you just re-enforce muzzle control and finger control on each repetition. Heck, we go overboard and show them how to tap and rack.

For the same reason I tell people "go to your doctor" when they ask questions about an injury. I'm not qualified to give legal advice.

I never said to offer them legal advice. Its pretty easy to look up whether you have a duty to retreat or whether you can stand your ground. Are you allowed to have a gun at all?

You could talk about different questions and offer suggestions on where to find the answers. (this is like telling people to go to the doctor...) You could invite a law enforcement officer to come discuss these things, either with you or with your students.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

he will, and you get to try that disarm again. (except that this time, he is ready for it)

In defence and fairness SOME people forget weapons were in play, or weapons of oppertunity. That can also be you the person who just disarmed them. It happens sometimes, not to be relied on and should be trained out of you if you can. If i source i saw was correct there was a SoE drill or several for weapons of oppertunity. eg, kill said person, they leave a weapon in the room or area, if you miss it they point it out. Unless you had a good reason for not using it.

And i can safely operate a firearm, might screw up now and then though as i havent had somone shout at me about the finger every time. You can use airsoft weapons if you really want or decommisioned ones that you can operate the charging handle on, safety lever(if present) and insert/remove magazines from.

Just conciously tell yourself coopers rules of firearm safety, and safely load, unload and make clear a firearm safely several times. Or replica. Oh and then you can could better dyanmic defences for firearms if everyone around you knows how to use them. Just get several masks and you can use magazien fed paintball guns or airsoft weapons. And then if you end up with the firearm you dont shoot somone by accident as well.

Edit: i would also say run through knife/bladed object safety as well if you ever involve yourself with them at all.