Arts that teach knife and gun defense

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by skribs, Dec 29, 2019.

  1. Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

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    ^^^^THIS^^^^
    I concur.
     
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  2. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Have you started training yet?

    The part I bolded is a position I wish more people would take. A lot of people tend to extrapolate "my experience is X, therefore everything is X."

    I like the sound of that drill. This is the type of thing we do in Hapkido (partner up, one person attack the other defend). It adds aliveness to the self-defense training and gives you a chance to spar with it.

    As to your healthy fear of guns, I just want to say that the more people know about guns, the less they tend to fear them. I've taken people who were nervous about guns to the shooting range, and taught them proper gun safety and basic shooting technique. Typically they will be less afraid of guns after that experience. Not all of them convert to gun nuts like me, but most of them are at least okay with me being a gun nut after that. (My sister was one of those).
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Mostly, just what Tony says here.

    I teach and train weapon defenses. For the most part, they're simply adjustments of techniques. The most important part of the knife defenses, actually, is starting with the assumption there may be one, so dealing with punches is adjusted slightly to that end. The other significant adjustment is "owning" the weapon arm. Since you're unlikely to want to let go of it if you get it (reasonable emotional response to a knife, for instance), we practice what to do once you have that arm in your possession, where that's a different approach from "normal".

    It's all going to be low-percentage. Always. I demonstrated this at my old school last year with some 2-man knife attacks. I got them to actually use what they knew in the attacks, and everyone "died" (including me). The dojo got very quiet - they weren't used to failing that way. Then I took a few minutes to talk about what percentages really are like, and that we're just working to shift the odds a bit.

    I'd rather run away. But I'm not as fast as I once was, and don't trust my speed to escape someone younger and fit. But I don't spend a lot of time training weapon defense. I spend about as much time teaching them to use the weapons (to one of Tony's points) as defending against them.

    To me, mostly, the value of weapon defense training is just to have a chance to explore (like you were suggesting the wrestler might do) to see what gives better odds in the simulation. And we all acknowledge that the "attack" in the dojo is always a simulation.
     
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  4. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    And that's REALLY hard to train without consistent exposure. It's pattern recognition, which uses some pretty fuzzy logic.
     
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  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Good point.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure that's true of all disarms, nor even the majority of those I've seen. Some simply ignore better options and make the situation worse.
     
  7. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Can you give an example?
     
  8. Christopher Adamchek

    Christopher Adamchek Blue Belt

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    There is plenty of solid knife defenses as long as you understand the reality of the high risk situation. You can have good defense in a fight or self defense encounter and still take a few shots, same thing with a knife just that there is a much higher risk. Also as mentioned before training attacking with a knife will help you and your partner get better at defense.
     
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  9. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I had planned on addressing this last night after work. Unfortunately, I was going over the new Department of Agriculture’s latest new rules about bringing in a puppy from the mainland. They have made it impossible. Our plans on bringing one in, that we’ve been working on for months, are now moot.
    Man, am I bummed.

    Anyway, probably tonight.
     
  10. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I’m sorry to hear that. We were dealing with that with our cats, when the plan was to move to Maui.
     
  11. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    I love it here. But the State politicians make everything difficult. They have made being crooked into an ugly form of art.
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'll try. I've seen a knife defense taught that grabs at the hand holding a "threatening" knife (not actually attacking with it), and does a quick reversal to disarm. Think kote gaeshi, if you're familiar with that term, but all from a static start, with almost no footwork. This is an extreme example - so much bad in this - but I've seen similar with gun disarms.
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Man, that sucks.
     
  14. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    One problem is all the really cool looking movie style disarms that aren't that realistic in real life.

    In reality, when disarming someone with a knife you are probably going to get cut and you better disarm them quickly and violently.

    When I was cut...the guy never held the knife up in front of me to grab. He stayed bladed with the knife in his back hand down by his side until he swiped forward at me and cut me across the shoulder.
     
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  15. Nc1992

    Nc1992 White Belt

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    I second what CB Jones says. My experience was similar only with a difference in where he aimed and I got cut.

    Biggest mistake I see with knife defense in a lot of places is sitting and waiting for him to make the first move. The minute you know the knife is in play whatever strategy you have should be centered on quick and violent action. Your gonna get cut, what you have control over in acting first is how long he’s gonna have the opportunity to cut you.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  16. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    i agree entirely with this and what cb jones said.

    it seems to me that most of the people saying how they or you should train knife disarms have never been in a knife fight

    this is so easy to stress test, get someone who is reasonably able, give them a wooden knife and tell them you'll give them 10 dollars every time they stick it in you ( which hurts by the way, if it doesn't hurt they are not doing it properly)

    by the time you owe them two hundred dollars and your covered in bruises it may occur to you that your knife disarm needs work

    doing this ONLY with compliant partner drills is as close to assisted suicide as it possible to get
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
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  17. CB Jones

    CB Jones Senior Master

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    Trying disarming a permanent marker from a partner and see how many marks you end up with.
     
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  18. Rat

    Rat Master Black Belt

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    Maybe. but you dont know the type until you break out the shock knife or paint knife and put it to use. I have seen either extracted from other places, or things that look like they would work or make sense, just with any practical context and training taken out of it. I am for beliving that the classic weapon strip you see works and is probbly quite effective at stripping weapons, just you arent learning how to do that against somone who is reasisting in a dyanmic and realstic enviroment. (which might not even have you fight over the weapon as you could just draw yours if you have one, or keeping running around a table or something or not have you use that technique taught in lieu of just ground and pounding them or something. etc)


    Firearm disarms are very much a the gunman has messed up severaly. The only cases you see them really work is the person has gotten in too close and/or attacked from a distraction or something like that. But still its a chance at surving if you manage to get the drop on somone to be in that position compared to next to none or being on the same level as them fighting over a weapon. And fighting over your (training)pistol for example in a controlled enviroment several times before having to do it for real would probbly translate into you having a better time. For who ever mentioned pistols. last bit is true for any weapons really.

    edit: the chances become slightly better if you start talking about long guns and carbines just because they are longer and there are situations where that puts them at a disadvantage that a pistol woulndt have due to length. Like i recall two police constables grappling over a shotgun with somone. No idea if it was real or fake and i think some others might have done similar things.

    Second edit: also if we start talking about longsword, FMA sparring, sword and buckler etc here, grappling if not disallowed by the rules and stripping of weapons is legit and done quite a bit in full contact matches in HEMA and the like. As soon as you close in to grapple range your fair game. which i dont think was the scope or intented scope of this thread, but whats the diffrence really? Only weapons and contexts.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2019
  19. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Long guns have more points of contact with the body, are ridiculously more stable than handguns, and quite often have a sling that makes it even more difficult. A long gun's barrel is also going to be closer to you than a handgun because of how you hold it. Where are you getting your information from?
     
  20. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    :)123
     
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