Aiki Jiu Jitsu

[Encho]

I don't know what goes on in that particular line. Do you? I know what I've seen of Yoshinkan has some similarities to other lines of Ueshiba's art, but contains a lot I don't see in most of the others (Tomiki is a partial exception).

You're really tied up on them not using the "Aikijujutsu" term, even though they are, in fact, descended from Daito-ryu. I'm not sure why, but you're determined to have it exactly your way, with no room for anyone else's thoughts nor any discussion. You just keep coming back to the same points, even when they don't seem to apply.

Once again Yoshinkan calls itself AIKIDO it does not call itself Aikijujutsu that is all to it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Once again Yoshinkan calls itself AIKIDO it does not call itself Aikijujutsu that is all to it.

Apparently, not all of Yoshinkan does that. You seem quite sure of yourself for someone outside that group.

 

[Encho]

Apparently, not all of Yoshinkan does that. You seem quite sure of yourself for someone outside that group.

Gpseymour, Yoshinkan as founded by the founder calls it Aikido thus in respect the art should be called what the founder intended it to be called by.

I do not see any websites in Japanese or any references made by students of Gozo from Japan or really anyone else but a very few mostly Americans calling it Aikijujutsu, do you think it is just slightly possible that they may be wrong in their use of calling it Aikijujutsu when everyone else including the founder does not refer to what he does as Aikijujutsu?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gpseymour, Yoshinkan as founded by the founder calls it Aikido thus in respect the art should be called what the founder intended it to be called by.

I do not see any websites in Japanese or any references made by students of Gozo from Japan or really anyone else but a very few mostly Americans calling it Aikijujutsu, do you think it is just slightly possible that they may be wrong in their use of calling it Aikijujutsu when everyone else including the founder does not refer to what he does as Aikijujutsu?

Now you are the arbiter of all that is Yoshinkan, too??

 

[Encho]

Now you are the arbiter of all that is Yoshinkan, too??

No matter what you say Gpseymour, the fact of the matter is Gozo the founder of this style never called his art Aikijujutsu, In his interviews he always says Aikido PERIOD.
So I am not sure what you are trying to say as I did not name Gozo's art AIKIDO he did so if it bothers you that he named it AIKIDO and NOT AIKIJUJUTSU well I guess you will have to take it up with the organization in Japan.

 

[Encho]

Vince1 if you and your teacher are happy to call your art Aikijujutsu I personally do not care either way it does not affect my training though if I were training in an art I would respect the founder of the art I study and call it what he called it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

No matter what you say Gpseymour, the fact of the matter is Gozo the founder of this style never called his art Aikijujutsu, In his interviews he always says Aikido PERIOD.
So I am not sure what you are trying to say as I did not name Gozo's art AIKIDO he did so if it bothers you that he named it AIKIDO and NOT AIKIJUJUTSU well I guess you will have to take it up with the organization in Japan.

You are certain he never referred to it as aikijujutsu, even to some of his students? That's an awful lot of absolutism.

I don't have to take anything up with anyone. You seem to be all up in arms about a word. A word probably coined by Takeda, but then all words were probably coined by someone (Ueshiba was likely not the first to use the term "Aikido"). That doesn't restrict the word's use to that initial usage, absent some form of ownership (trademark, etc.).

 

[Encho]

You are certain he never referred to it as aikijujutsu, even to some of his students? That's an awful lot of absolutism.

I don't have to take anything up with anyone. You seem to be all up in arms about a word. A word probably coined by Takeda, but then all words were probably coined by someone (Ueshiba was likely not the first to use the term "Aikido"). That doesn't restrict the word's use to that initial usage, absent some form of ownership (trademark, etc.).

Gpseymour, I nor anyone was with Gozo every second of his life but if the man named his art AIKIDO said in interviews AIKIDO wrote books called AIKIDO why on earth would you think Aikijujutsu? Is it possible he said to someone I am teaching you Aikijujutsu, I learned Aikijujutsu, My license is Aikijujutsu and some how in translation it got mixed up?
Is there any support that Gozo may have said anything that he teaches Aikijujutsu I do not see it, Stanley Pranin interviewed him and based on the research it most likely he learned Daito ryu Ueshiba ha or Aikibudo during the transition period to Aikido.

If I am understanding your position, is that Aikijujutsu is a generic term like Taijutsu or Aiki which in fact it is not. Yawara, Wajutsu and other Jujutsu terms are generic however Aikijujutsu is uniquely Takeda's and pertains to Daito ryu specifically. Takeda did not trademark it just like other koryu did not trademark their name 400 years ago.
If I am to understand your position you feel that because Gozo has a license in a Daito ryu, then Yoshinkan can/should say they practice Aikijujutsu even if the founder refers to his art as Aikido?

I am not hung up on the word as I am simply saying the usage seems to be incorrect in reference to Gozo's art in which he refers to his own art as Aikido.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@oaktree, I'd be interested in hearing your input. Thus far, I've been unable to get more than one point out of Encho, and a point that I think misses how language develops. If you have another view on why aikijujutsu shouldn't be used, I'd like to hear it.

 

[oaktree]

@oaktree, I'd be interested in hearing your input. Thus far, I've been unable to get more than one point out of Encho, and a point that I think misses how language develops. If you have another view on why aikijujutsu shouldn't be used, I'd like to hear it.

What is Aikijujutsu合気柔術 exactly? who invented the term? Can anyone use the term? I think Encho has a point at least from a Daito ryu understanding of it and the history context. I think two different points are being talked about in the thread, The first one is Yoshinkan Aikido or Aikjujutsu and the second one seems to be can anyone use the term Aikijujutsu. I do not think Yoshinkan can be classified as Aikijujutsu from a Daito ryu stand point or a koryu stand point simply because its not either, it is its own Gendai creation created as its own thing. Now lets examine it if Shioda called it Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Shioda branch, then yes it would still follow the Daito ryu Aikijujutsu line. Shioda instead choose to follow Ueshiba and call his art Aikido which though shares a link to Daito ryu it is its own thing now. Are the techniques Aikijujutsu then?


Depends on who you ask, even among Daito ryu people argue who displays the actual Aikijujutsu among the different lines. I think what Encho was saying is many people put Karate to make up for atemi in Aikido and say well now that is Aikijujutsu and then it goes with the other part of the thread can anyone use the term to mean anything or does Aikijujutsu have a set meaning?It is a grey area and there really is no right or wrong answer especially from a purist like Encho.

So the reason you 2 won't agree is because you both are correct in your particular meaning of the word.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What is Aikijujutsu合気柔術 exactly? who invented the term? Can anyone use the term? I think Encho has a point at least from a Daito ryu understanding of it and the history context. I think two different points are being talked about in the thread, The first one is Yoshinkan Aikido or Aikjujutsu and the second one seems to be can anyone use the term Aikijujutsu. I do not think Yoshinkan can be classified as Aikijujutsu from a Daito ryu stand point or a koryu stand point simply because its not either, it is its own Gendai creation created as its own thing. Now lets examine it if Shioda called it Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Shioda branch, then yes it would still follow the Daito ryu Aikijujutsu line. Shioda instead choose to follow Ueshiba and call his art Aikido which though shares a link to Daito ryu it is its own thing now. Are the techniques Aikijujutsu then?


Depends on who you ask, even among Daito ryu people argue who displays the actual Aikijujutsu among the different lines. I think what Encho was saying is many people put Karate to make up for atemi in Aikido and say well now that is Aikijujutsu and then it goes with the other part of the thread can anyone use the term to mean anything or does Aikijujutsu have a set meaning?It is a grey area and there really is no right or wrong answer especially from a purist like Encho.

So the reason you 2 won't agree is because you both are correct in your particular meaning of the word.

I think you've said clearly what my point was. I understand (I think) the view from Daito-ryu purists (not a derogatory term). But once a term exists and is seen as a descriptor, it is common in language for it to be used by others to describe other things they see as fitting the description. Since I've yet to find two people who entirely agree on what "aiki" is, I'm not surprised that some folks would use the term "aikijujutsu" to describe something that others don't think fits the definition.

 

[the8th_light]

Gerry,

You've pretty much summarized the whole thing. But, what is pretty much a generic term today in the west was not in the recent past, and therein lies the friction.

Adding to the friction has been a heap of people, mostly outside Japan, wishing not only to separate themselves from modern Aikido but also to jump on the "jutsu" bandwagon because they want their art to seem tougher, even if it only amounts to their adding a few judo/karate/misc techniques to their basic aikido repertoire.

There are cases inside Japan where care was and is taken to AVOID using the aikijutsu name, BECAUSE it is not considered generic (even when one or two generations away from Takeda!), but even today there are some dubious organizations there that walk/talk and look like and advertise "it" but fail under scrutiny, because they fall under the previous category...rougher aikido with punches/kicks, or even mimicking the original in shape and movement but without an understanding of the underlying principles. Unfortunately for the average prospective student, they can't tell the difference, and we can only hope they start a topic on a martial arts message board asking questions. Whether or not they care about the replies is moot!

What it's come down two in the last thirty-plus years or so, especially since video tapes became a common way to share or sell anything interesting, is "pollution" to put it bluntly, and more than ever the latin phrase "caveat emptor" ("may the buyer beware") is fitting.

Devon

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Gerry,

You've pretty much summarized the whole thing. But, what is pretty much a generic term today in the west was not in the recent past, and therein lies the friction.

Adding to the friction has been a heap of people, mostly outside Japan, wishing not only to separate themselves from modern Aikido but also to jump on the "jutsu" bandwagon because they want their art to seem tougher, even if it only amounts to their adding a few judo/karate/misc techniques to their basic aikido repertoire.

There are cases inside Japan where care was and is taken to AVOID using the aikijutsu name, BECAUSE it is not considered generic (even when one or two generations away from Takeda!), but even today there are some dubious organizations there that walk/talk and look like and advertise "it" but fail under scrutiny, because they fall under the previous category...rougher aikido with punches/kicks, or even mimicking the original in shape and movement but without an understanding of the underlying principles. Unfortunately for the average prospective student, they can't tell the difference, and we can only hope they start a topic on a martial arts message board asking questions. Whether or not they care about the replies is moot!

What it's come down two in the last thirty-plus years or so, especially since video tapes became a common way to share or sell anything interesting, is "pollution" to put it bluntly, and more than ever the latin phrase "caveat emptor" ("may the buyer beware") is fitting.

Devon

I think one area of the friction might also be the difference in understanding of what "aiki" even is. I've heard one explanation from the elder Kondo Sensei (I've forgotten his personal name), but I suspect it's only part of his definition. It fits one of two I personally use, and I've yet to find two people (even in the same dojo) who give the same answer, unless one is quoting the other (student and instructor, for instance). So, when something is called "aikijutsu/aikijujutsu" (I know they are different things in Daito-ryu and probably in Japanese, but seem to be used somewhat interchangeably when brought into English) and "fails" under scrutiny, it may be that it fails to meet what those in Daito-ryu would look for.

I think the largest issue is that the words, particularly when brought into another language, become approximations, and are often used as descriptors, where the original intent may have been for them to be specific to an art or part of an art. It's the old dictionary problem - dictionaries actually follow usage, rather than dictating it. So, no matter how much it irritates me when someone "misuses" a word (like a friend who uses "infer" to mean "imply"), if it's done enough, the dictionary changes to their usage. I suspect (without any real knowledge to back it up, except interaction with people who know the language) that there's a slower change (and more resistance to it) in the Japanese language, perhaps because of its conceptual (rather than phonetic) nature.

 

[Encho]

What is Aikijujutsu合気柔術 exactly? who invented the term? Can anyone use the term? I think Encho has a point at least from a Daito ryu understanding of it and the history context. I think two different points are being talked about in the thread, The first one is Yoshinkan Aikido or Aikjujutsu and the second one seems to be can anyone use the term Aikijujutsu. I do not think Yoshinkan can be classified as Aikijujutsu from a Daito ryu stand point or a koryu stand point simply because its not either, it is its own Gendai creation created as its own thing. Now lets examine it if Shioda called it Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Shioda branch, then yes it would still follow the Daito ryu Aikijujutsu line. Shioda instead choose to follow Ueshiba and call his art Aikido which though shares a link to Daito ryu it is its own thing now. Are the techniques Aikijujutsu then?


Depends on who you ask, even among Daito ryu people argue who displays the actual Aikijujutsu among the different lines. I think what Encho was saying is many people put Karate to make up for atemi in Aikido and say well now that is Aikijujutsu and then it goes with the other part of the thread can anyone use the term to mean anything or does Aikijujutsu have a set meaning?It is a grey area and there really is no right or wrong answer especially from a purist like Encho.

So the reason you 2 won't agree is because you both are correct in your particular meaning of the word.

Hi oaktree, you said it pretty well I think.

 

[vince1]

Vince1 if you and your teacher are happy to call your art Aikijujutsu I personally do not care either way it does not affect my training though if I were training in an art I would respect the founder of the art I study and call it what he called it.

I will try and find out more history behind the martial art Aiki Jiu Jitsu from Master Carrothers. I am very much interested in the origins of this martial art as well as when the separation took place from the Aiki Jiu Jitsu practioners and the others that focused on Aikido. I want to make sure I obtain the correct information why this separation took place along with the timeline as previously discussed with my teacher.

I am new to this martial art and appreciate everyone's insight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I will try and find out more history behind the martial art Aiki Jiu Jitsu from Master Carrothers. I am very much interested in the origins of this martial art as well as when the separation took place from the Aiki Jiu Jitsu practioners and the others that focused on Aikido. I want to make sure I obtain the correct information why this separation took place along with the timeline as previously discussed with my teacher.

I am new to this martial art and appreciate everyone's insight.

Please let us know what you find. I'm curious about the progression, the differences in the principles and techniques used, and the naming choice. Are you, by any chance, aware of any videos (YouTube, etc.) from Mr. Carrothers' organization?

 

[Encho]

Here is a video of Mr. Carrother or at least a Mr. Carrother teaching Aikijujutu. Regardless of it being Aikido, Aikijujutsu, Jujutsu or just simple martial arts it is a rather poor display.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is a video of Mr. Carrother or at least a Mr. Carrother teaching Aikijujutu. Regardless of it being Aikido, Aikijujutsu, Jujutsu or just simple martial arts it is a rather poor display.

That isn't Mr. Carrothers, according to comments. Those are two brown belts demonstrating techniques for someone working on their "second white" (whatever that is). I recognize the base techniques in there, though it looks like they don't include structure control at that level - just the positioning for it, at least in the forms in that demonstration.

 

[Encho]

That isn't Mr. Carrothers, according to comments. Those are two brown belts demonstrating techniques for someone working on their "second white" (whatever that is). I recognize the base techniques in there, though it looks like they don't include structure control at that level - just the positioning for it, at least in the forms in that demonstration.

Just looking at it from a structure point of view it is not very good and does not display any Aikijujutsu or even Aiki for that matter, but if you enjoy it and see Aikijujutsu and think its good that is great!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That isn't Mr. Carrothers, according to comments. Those are two brown belts demonstrating techniques for someone working on their "second white" (whatever that is). I recognize the base techniques in there, though it looks like they don't include structure control at that level - just the positioning for it, at least in the forms in that demonstration.

Just looking at it from a structure point of view it is not very good and does not display any Aikijujutsu or even Aiki for that matter, but if you enjoy it and see Aikijujutsu and think its good that is great!

I have no opinion on what it should be called, but it looks to me like the demonstrator has learned the choreography of the techniques without the principles, body mechanics, and details which actually make the techniques work.