Aiki Jiu Jitsu

[the8th_light]

Hi Gerry,

Having spent a few years investigating and studying two different branches of Daito-ryu, my short answer is "it doesn't differ much". We've tried to put a decent public overview of Hakkoryu on www.hakkoryu.com. Hakkoryu's wikipedia article isn't bad, either.

In regards to the original topic, I feel it's actually pretty important to dive deeper into any school or person using the words "aiki" and "jutsu" (or "jitsu") or even "aikibudo" to describe what they're teaching. There's already been about thirty or forty years of these terms being muddied by improper use in the west.

What it really comes down to is one of two possibilities (though there are a couple of well-known exceptions). One, the person has some background in Daito-ryu. Two, the person does not, but is using the term(s) in an attempt to make a distinction between what they teach and modern Aikido. The latter is what's been clouding the pond in the last few decades.

Devon

 

[Encho]

Hi vince1,

I'll try to help a little bit. The history you heard regarding the late Gozo Shioda (direct student of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba) and the late Takashi Kushida (direct student of Shioda) is pretty much correct. The timing is off a little.

I was fortunate to have attended a few of Kushida-sensei's demonstrations, and sat in on one of his classes while I lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan in the early 1990's, shortly after he parted ways with his teacher's organization. Watching him and comparing his work to films of his teacher, they're very much the same. In my opinion, a credit to early Aikido. I was also fortunate enough to have met some of Kushida's students during my time at Eastern Michigan University when they held classes on campus. FYI, EMU's just a few miles East of Ann Arbor.

Shioda's early Yoshinkai and Kushida's Yoshokai have always used the term "Aikido" to describe their teaching and practice. But as far as their Aikido goes, it could be said to be a bit "hard", with more emphasis on striking and pinning, plus a structured curriculum of techniques that's not common with other branches of Aikido, in my opinion. If you watch films of either of them, it's clearly Aikido. I say "clearly" meaning in contrast to Daito-ryu. There is some really cool crossover happening here with Shioda and Kushida and what Ueshiba learned from his Daito-ryu teacher.

Now we get into nomenclature, naming stuff, and unfortunately marketing and personal interpretation blurs it all. What's worse, is that in the '60's some western publications made a really big deal about the differences between "do" and "jutsu". There is no such polarization in Japan. The Japanese see it as one, the same.

Inside Daito-ryu, there is a catalog of techniques Among them is a set of jujutsu 柔術, aikinojutsu 合気之術, and aikijutsu 合気柔術.

Anyone can name their teachings "aiki jiu jitsu". It's a fad, often an attempt to say "we do it harder" than aikido, so be careful.

I'm a student of Hakkoryu, some might call it an offshoot of Daito-ryu, like Aikido. Hakkoryu's founder was happy to call it all "jujutsu" but many of the interesting things are all included.

Hey vince1, spend time with him! Go out of your way to do it. You might have found a gold mine in your own back yard.


Devon Smith

Hi 8th light, I saw the name and thought I wonder if they are a Hakko ryu person lol. I do like Hakko ryu stuffs, We had a Hakko ryu guy who use to come to sword practice and said our Daito ryu is to soft haha!

 

[FighterTwister]

Hello Encho,

The style that you do is it like this....................

Just out of interest thats what I use to do as Aiki Jiu Jitsu i did enjoy it for about 4 years learning all I could but I wanted something different more like Wing Chun and moved across to Jeet Kune Do which I really love and have taken those skills from Aiki Jiu Jitsu over.

I was doing Wing Chun and was getting bored and after 5 years of doing it and a guy I met at uni invited me to visit and tried it and liked it from the start all the throws and knife defense and joint locks etc were great to learn.

I still have some study material put away covering certain training we did. So I did learn allot and did commit 3 times a wek training and after hours with the guy I met especially from the point of view defending from a base ball bat attack, that we used regularly as given scenarios or other wooden training weapons

What I'm looking for is a wall chart of all the throws and moves with the given names or at least a a PDF File can you help with that at all.

Something like this but more detailed I would love to put on a wall...........

I'm forgetting a few of the names and types of throws its been 20 years now that I did it, and one of throws that i enjoyed doing is the one where someone runs up to you with a sword you grap the wrist in a flow motion as you step in then turn using the energy of the forward attack in the opposite direction and throw them over.

Kind of like this.............

I really need some good charts to refresh my memory.

I was going to buy some but they are not cheap all I need is something like the above pics but searching through Google has proven to be difficult can anybody help.

Thanks in advance

 

[Encho]

Dear fighter twister,
I do not practice yoshinkai.
The video has more of a similar approach to daito ryu but to me seems added things to it. I think the sword part is a good example of the differences. In Daito ryu at least in some cases, we would not wait until the sword has already come down one simple reason it's easy to just turn the sword and cut to the side the other is once the sword is already down where is the "aiki" ? I would say the teacher has a good flow with his uke.

The move you are describing sounds like shiho nage.

 

[Yamabushii]

In my opinion it depends on what jujutsu ryu-ha. The term Ju and Aiki have similar meaning depending on teacher

Which jujutsu ryu-ha would you say is superior to Daito Ryu? I don't mean to say Daito Ryu is superior to jujutsu as a whole, but as far as ryu-ha go, I don't see any standing above it. Personally, I feel it is the most intricate and effective (once mastered) form of jujutsu.

 

[Encho]

Which jujutsu ryu-ha would you say is superior to Daito Ryu? I don't mean to say Daito Ryu is superior to jujutsu as a whole, but as far as ryu-ha go, I don't see any standing above it. Personally, I feel it is the most intricate and effective (once mastered) form of jujutsu.

Hi Yamabushii,
I do not really think Daito ryu is superior or inferior to any other ryuha. I will say it appears to be more sophisticated, complex, and refined compared to most ryuha. It really depends on what other jujutsu school we are talking about. The other thing is effective at what exactly.

 

[the8th_light]

Hi Yamabushii,
I do not really think Daito ryu is superior or inferior to any other ryuha. I will say it appears to be more sophisticated, complex, and refined compared to most ryuha. It really depends on what other jujutsu school we are talking about. The other thing is effective at what exactly.

I think this answer is a good one, I feel the same. One finds many differences among Daito-ryu schools in fact. Takumakai, Kodokai and others all enjoy much similarity, but differences, too. And there are reasons for it easily explained.

Even in Hakkoryu, which is a smaller school, all the teachers have some new or different input they share, be they in Japan or abroad. It's evident since we try to get everyone together often, and have done a good job over the years of getting together. Hakkoryu still runs much like koryu though, we share the same patterns of practice, in which the principles live.

Devon

 

[FighterTwister]

Can anyone help with Aiki Jiu-Jitsu Charts mentioned in post #43 Please Please Please

Thanks in advance

 

[the8th_light]

Can anyone help with Aiki Jiu-Jitsu Charts mentioned in post #43 Please Please Please

Thanks in advance

Sorry, no such thing exists.

Devon

 

[FighterTwister]

Sorry, no such thing exists.

Devon

LoL they do exist its just sourcing them all I want is even a pdf file or poster or even an image like in post #43

 

[the8th_light]

LoL they do exist its just sourcing them all I want is even a pdf file or poster or even an image like in post #43

There aren't any, because we don't make them, and if we did, they'd not be available to the public.

Maybe I can help further. Are you interested in studying? Let me know where you're located, maybe I could suggest a school or private teacher near you for Daitoryu or Hakkoryu.

Devon

 

[FighterTwister]

There aren't any, because we don't make them, and if we did, they'd not be available to the public.

Maybe I can help further. Are you interested in studying? Let me know where you're located, maybe I could suggest a school or private teacher near you for Daitoryu or Hakkoryu.

Devon

LoL

An example if I may ..................... https://www.amazon.com/Ace-Martial-...rd_wg=S3Tdz&psc=1&refRID=ZAFWJPHGFNR30M1QGZAV


or

https://www.amazon.com/Poster-KARAT...rd_wg=S3Tdz&psc=1&refRID=ZAFWJPHGFNR30M1QGZAV


Is that any clearer LoL

 

[Encho]

LoL they do exist its just sourcing them all I want is even a pdf file or poster or even an image like in post #43

Hi Fighter Twister there really is no Aikijujutsu poster a PDF book maybe on some questionable website, Stanley Pranin(R.I.P.) has/had a Daito ryu learners package that has some great videos of different teachers, a PDF book from the mainline showing the technique and another PDF book on interview and history. I highly recommend it especially the interview book.
Koryu are for the most part private as in for students only learning. What is shown to the public is not main thing kinda of like showing KFC chicken to the public but not the herbs and spices.
If you are interested in learning finding a teacher would be your best bet. I have a teacher and books, videos and notes are references. An example was when performing a set I forgot a part and had to look at a book then recall the lesson with my teacher to perform it.

 

[FighterTwister]

Never mind I found one I had to pay for it

Thanks anyways

 

[hoshin1600]

as a side note , my aikido teacher Fumio Toyota told about how in the 1960's he would see many schools here in the US using the aikido name. he would personally go to each of these schools and ask for their credentials from hombu dojo that allows them to use the name and brand Aikido, if they did not have any he would send them a legal cease and desist letter. he noticed that many of those schools would simply change the name to aikijujutsu.

 

[the8th_light]

What is shown to the public is not main thing kinda of like showing KFC chicken to the public but not the herbs and spices.

An excellent metaphor.

Devon

 

[Encho]

Never mind I found one I had to pay for it

Thanks anyways

Would be curious to see exactly what it is.

 

[Encho]

as a side note , my aikido teacher Fumio Toyota told about how in the 1960's he would see many schools here in the US using the aikido name. he would personally go to each of these schools and ask for their credentials from hombu dojo that allows them to use the name and brand Aikido, if they did not have any he would send them a legal cease and desist letter. he noticed that many of those schools would simply change the name to aikijujutsu.

I did not know the word "Aikido" is copyrighted.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I did not know the word "Aikido" is copyrighted.

It isn't. The relevant legalities here would involve trademark, but I don't believe "Aikido" is trademarked in the U.S.. Perhaps Mr. Toyota was able to intimidate dojo owners who weren't familiar with trademark law.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

as a side note , my aikido teacher Fumio Toyota told about how in the 1960's he would see many schools here in the US using the aikido name. he would personally go to each of these schools and ask for their credentials from hombu dojo that allows them to use the name and brand Aikido, if they did not have any he would send them a legal cease and desist letter. he noticed that many of those schools would simply change the name to aikijujutsu.

I hadn't heard of that. As a side note, he apparently was aware of the larger use of "Aikido" as a group of arts (per the DNBK), as he took a high-ranking NGA instructor to Japan with him on a visit to some of the dojos there. We are not descended from Ueshiba's art, and he would surely be aware of that. So his objection would have been to those using "Aikido" to establish a false link to Ueshiba, or by those without enough experience to actually teach that art.