Aiki Jiu Jitsu

Discussion in 'Japanese Martial Arts - General' started by vince1, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    There's significant debate of whether Daito-ryu is koryu. Outside of koryu, most folks don't really focus on "Jutsu" versus "do". The name doesn't tell most consumers much until they hear it explained and/or see it performed. Someone who knows enough to know the difference, will likely see the difference as soon as they step in the school. So there's little chance of it being misleading to anyone.
     
  2. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    Ok, I do other koryu besides daito ryu, and daito ryu has a closer connection to koryu then gendai arts, in my opinion, daito ryu is more sophisticated then other classical jujutsu schools. Did the founder create the art, did he take an already existed art and add to it, or we to believe it is over 1000 years old, no one knows or likely will ever know, regardless does not change the fact that yoshinkai is not aikijujutsu and they refer to their art as aikido.
    I think people should understand what art they are actually studying and the characteristics of said art. I do think, if you are studying a do or jutsu art you should understand the context of the difference between them both for clarification and historical value.
    As for the original poster thinks he is doing aikijujutsu I think someone who actually does aikijujutsu should clarify things.
     
  3. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In my opinion, the names aren’t terribly important in identifying an art, except where they clearly misidentify it as a different art. “Yoshinkan Aikijujutsu” is just a name, used to differentiate one branch of Shioda’s teaching. It doesn’t lead people to believe anything inaccurate. You or me insisting they use a name that (perhaps incorrectly) names it the same as another branch of Shioda’s teaching doesn’t seem helpful.
     
  4. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    It's not called yoshinkai aikijutsu,it is called yoshinkai aikido. I did not coin the term that is what it is called. I have seen students try to use the title they teach aikijujutsu under the yoshinkai and it looks like aikido pure and simple. If you want to refer to it as aikijujutsu then fine, others who actually do aikijujutsu will just roll their eyes.
     
  5. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Words’ meanings are not static. They only mean what people agree they mean. If they use that name for their branch, then that is the name of the branch, whether I, you, or anyone else agrees with them or not.
     
  6. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    Gpseymour, as I said before if you want to use the term aikijujutsu to describe this aikido so be it, us aikijujutsu from daito ryu will just shake our head in disbelief. I only commented in case the original poster was looking for authentic aikijujutsu and not some pseudo aikijujutsu with an aikido overtone.
     
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure those practicing it will care if folks are shaking their heads and disagreeing about the term. Daito-ryu is neither the only source of aiki arts, nor the arbiter of the term "aikijujutsu". They aren't claiming to be what you are - they're simply differentiating themselves from another branch of Shioda's teaching.
     
  8. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    Gpseymour, I have seen from your posts you are a man who likes to debate and argue, I'll leave you to do so with your self.
    Enjoy your life sir.
     
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  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    When you make definitive statements arguing ownership of a term, expect there to be others who may disagree with you.
     
  10. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    You are more than welcome to be an aikido practitioner in disagreement with someone who practices daito ryu aikijujutsu and 3 other koryu arts. Have a nice day!
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You seem to think I'm a practitioner of the style in question. I am not. I am, in fact, an Aikido practitioner. And I do disagree with you, and your involvement in koryu doesn't really give you any advanced claim on truth.
     
  12. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    You practice nihon goshin aikido as I said you are an aikido practitioner.
    My involvement includes practice in aikijujutsu from daito ryu, as well as 3 other koryu arts so perhaps my understanding of aikijujutsu in which I practice in might have some bearing compared to what an aikidoka thinks aikijujutsu is. If you like please tell me what aikijujutsu is, tell me what other koryu besides daito ryu and perhaps yanagi ryu calls their art aikijujutsu. I am open to learn. Also note alot of what is said about aikijujutsu and koryu things are not said online as it is kuden.
     
  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's the issue, though. You're talking about the aikijujutsu you practice ("my understanding of aikijujutsu in which I practice"). The style in question is not claiming to be that aikijujutsu. They are simply using the term aikijujutsu to differentiate from another variation from Shioda. The term "aikijujutsu" is descriptive, not definiitive. By that, I mean it describes something about the style (namely, and exclusively, that it is an aiki art). If they called it Yoshinkan Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, I'd agree with your point, but they do not. That's why I started this by saying that Daito-ryu is not the only aiki-oriented jujutsu (thus, not the only style that could be described by the term "aikijujutsu"). You are essentially asserting ownership of the term "aikijujutsu" for Daito-ryu, and I don't think that's consistent with how everyone sees it. I've run into several off-shoots of various aiki-oriented arts and styles that used "aikijujutsu" instead of "aikido", because "aikido" has been confusingly used as the name of Ueshiba's art. So, some use "aikijujutsu" specifically to differentiate from that art.
     
  14. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    The OP says he is it at least his teacher is teaching aikijujutsu, when in fact what he is learning is aikido, the founder of his school calls it aikido.

    I would say aikijujutsu has certain characteristics that make it unique enough to tell it is different from other martial arts. I would say if we are talking about a koryu then aikijujutsu has a more combat orient focus giving it a different feel then anything aikido could give, or duplicate.
    Daito ryu is not the only aiki orient art it is however uniquely called aikijujutsu unless you know of another koryu art using the term aikijujutsu. Further more, aikijujutsu is not the highest level of aiki, compare to aiki no jutsu. As you stated you run into offshoots that use the term aikijujutsu however, they are gendai and often a mashup of karate judo and aikido. Aikijujutsu is not copyrighted so noone owns it, just like noone owns the word ninjutsu, but if you use the term and call a certain art ninjutsu doesn't make it so. If you truly feel what you do is aikijujutsu then fine it doesn't effect my training even the slightest.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    My point is linguistic, and I dont' think I've made it well.

    "aiki" is a term that isn't exclusive to any one art or branch. "jutsu" is simply the predecessor to "do - while the two were meant to have different meanings, they no longer really do for most people, and folks began using them interchangeably (choosing one or the other) some time ago. There are arts that have been formed after the Meiji restoration that used "jutsu" (Brazilian Jiu-jutsu is just one example, which followed the early naming of Kano's art).

    Given those facts (and I'm open to having any of them refuted, though those are all based upon some broad exposure), it's tough to argue that "aikijutsu" or "aikijujutsu" (which I've heard used interchangeably, as well) aren't alternate terms to "aikido" (which, while commonly known as the name of Ueshiba's art, is actually also a designation of a group of arts).

    I don't agree with the concept that a koryu (-jutsu) art is by definition more combat oriented than a gendai (-do) art. While that was the original intent, there is no restriction on how combat oriented an Aikido art or style can become. I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning behind this statement.
     
  16. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    I have said before that Daito ryu is not the only art that uses the term aiki however, it is the only one I can think of that is koryu that uses the term "aikijujutsu" and is active.
    Aikijujutsu and aiki no jutsu differ alot actually. It is hard to describe a koryu art to someone who doesn't do a koryu art.
    Combat orient means the mindset is to kill your opponent and he is trying to kill you that is why in the first technique you learn is how to defend against a sword and cut off his head in daito ryu.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's battlefield combat. That's different from defensive combat for civilians.

    It seems to me (and I may be wrong) that you are applying koryu mindset to analyzing the use of the terms. Gendai usage is (appears to me, anyway) looser, probably much more influenced by the spread to the Western world. That's probably why you and I see this very differently. To me, it's just words, and as such the meanings are maleable by usage. You expect the words to continue to mean what they've always meant, if I understand your position correctly. So, to you, there is a distinct difference between aikijujustu and aikijutsu (or aiki no jutsu, which I've never heard used to name an art). My point was and is that the terms do not mislead anyone. Those who (like you) understand the original meanings would also be too well informed to believe what they do is what the name implies to you. To everyone outside your cohort, the name is loosely descriptive at best, and miscommunicates nothing. So, to your point that people should know what they are getting - most folks won't really get that (or be deceived about it) from an art's name.
     
  18. Encho

    Encho Green Belt

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    ok...
     
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  19. the8th_light

    the8th_light White Belt

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    Hi vince1,

    I'll try to help a little bit. The history you heard regarding the late Gozo Shioda (direct student of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba) and the late Takashi Kushida (direct student of Shioda) is pretty much correct. The timing is off a little.

    I was fortunate to have attended a few of Kushida-sensei's demonstrations, and sat in on one of his classes while I lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan in the early 1990's, shortly after he parted ways with his teacher's organization. Watching him and comparing his work to films of his teacher, they're very much the same. In my opinion, a credit to early Aikido. I was also fortunate enough to have met some of Kushida's students during my time at Eastern Michigan University when they held classes on campus. FYI, EMU's just a few miles East of Ann Arbor.

    Shioda's early Yoshinkai and Kushida's Yoshokai have always used the term "Aikido" to describe their teaching and practice. But as far as their Aikido goes, it could be said to be a bit "hard", with more emphasis on striking and pinning, plus a structured curriculum of techniques that's not common with other branches of Aikido, in my opinion. If you watch films of either of them, it's clearly Aikido. I say "clearly" meaning in contrast to Daito-ryu. There is some really cool crossover happening here with Shioda and Kushida and what Ueshiba learned from his Daito-ryu teacher.

    Now we get into nomenclature, naming stuff, and unfortunately marketing and personal interpretation blurs it all. What's worse, is that in the '60's some western publications made a really big deal about the differences between "do" and "jutsu". There is no such polarization in Japan. The Japanese see it as one, the same.

    Inside Daito-ryu, there is a catalog of techniques Among them is a set of jujutsu 柔術, aikinojutsu 合気之術, and aikijutsu 合気柔術.

    Anyone can name their teachings "aiki jiu jitsu". It's a fad, often an attempt to say "we do it harder" than aikido, so be careful.

    I'm a student of Hakkoryu, some might call it an offshoot of Daito-ryu, like Aikido. Hakkoryu's founder was happy to call it all "jujutsu" but many of the interesting things are all included.

    Hey vince1, spend time with him! Go out of your way to do it. You might have found a gold mine in your own back yard.


    Devon Smith
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2017
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Thanks for that contribution, Devon. I've heard of Hakkoryu, but know nothing of it. How does it differ in approach from Daito-ryu?123
     

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