Your thoughts on these locks?

[Kung Fu Wang]

There are many in the aiki world who look down at anything viewed as competitive, including actual resistive sparring.

The problem is if your opponent doesn't resist, you will never learn how to take advantage on his resisting.

For example, when you apply wrist lock on me, if I raise my elbow up, what will you do?

In other words, the Aikido train how to deal with yielding force, but they don't train how to deal with resisting force.

 

[Flying Crane]

In other words, the Aikido train how to deal with yielding force, but they don't train how to deal with resisting force.

You know this with certainty? How do you know this?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You know this with certainty? How do you know this?

At least 3 Aikido BB told me this.

 

[Flying Crane]

At least 3 Aikido BB told me this.

How are you defining yielding force and resisting force?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well no, we need to go a bit farther back. I had made a statement that my sensei can apply the techniques in an overwhelming way. That statement was not originally directed at you, was not a response to something you had said, but you commented with something like “was that fighting, or doing aikido”.

My point is, why would you question if that was meant for combat, or some other abstract something? I don’t even know what else it would be: of course what we are training is meant for combat/conflict. Was I fighting my sensei? No, of course not. He demonstrates techniques that he teaches us. In that context, I can certainly feel the power and authority he can bring to the table. But I am there to learn aikido, not to challenge the sensei with my kung fu. The training is meant for combat. That is understood.

I asked because the context of what someone trains is important. And I wanted to know in which context a technique was applied in an overwhelming way. I think context matters when discussing training. If he's demonstrating a technique, then I know the application of a technique is done differently and that it's also done outside of the context of sparring and fighting.

Feeling power in a demonstration for me is like feeling a small percentage of what can be. Overwhelming way is more of what someone would get when sparring or more accurately fighting. Because in sparring that power level still isn't maxed out. For me the best way for me to learn joint locks and grappling techniques is to actually experience that technique first hand. As much as I dread being the "demo boy" for a martial arts class. I always enjoy the experience of feeling a technique applied. Even if it's not in sparring. But for me overwhelming is something that doesn't come out until I'm sparring. If I'm accepting the technique in order to understand it then I know that it's going to be overwhelming as much as it's going to be the understanding that there is much more power that can be applied than what I'm receiving.

Even for Demos I intentionally do not put a lot of power in the demo strike because i know that there's a risk that that my own may be used to apply the technique.

Some teacher spar with their students so it's not an unusual question. Fighting was not the accurate word and I should have said sparring. But it's still the context of how you are perceiving "overwhelming way"

The train is meant for combat is not understood. I don't take your classes so I ask. I've seen Aikdo practiced in many ways and I know that not everyone trains for fighting. Even if you in part of a demonstration of how things work and you feel a small percentage of the power. It does not mean what is being taught is trained in a way that is used for fighting.

From my experience. It has always been up to the teacher to decide if they which to train on the fighting path or the health and mental peace path. Not everyone walks the same path when they train at a martial arts school. Which is why I made marketing changes to attract more people who were interested in function so that the paths of those I train would be similar.

So that's why I asked. The context in which people train is important.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

How are you defining yielding force and resisting force?

I pull you.

Yielding force - You borrow my pulling force and come toward me.

Resisting force - You fight against my pulling force and move away from me.

No resisting in this video.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The problem is if your opponent doesn't resist, you will never learn how to take advantage on his resisting.

Very true.

I pull you.

Yielding force - You borrow my pulling force and come toward me.

Resisting force - You fight against my pulling force and move away from me.

No resisting in this video.

I don't understand things like the No Resistance example.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The wrist-locks in the original videos have really got people bound up in a strange commentary here on this thread

Topic drift is pretty normal here on Martial Talk.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I see this as well. His efforts now look more like a mixture of what he train vs the principles of Aikido. As someone who tries to stick with Jow Ga through success and failure. I would have liked to see him stay "more true" to the teaching. He forces the lock which means his timing is off or that the lock is being applied at the wrong time.

Joint locks in general should fit like the teeth of gears. The movement should flow in the gaps of resistance. They shouldn't have to be forced. While force is used. It should be the force that is used to "turn a gear" that has correct connection and not to force the "turning of gears that don't connect." It's that type of efficiency that he should be trying to achieve. Don't force it, find the gaps of the gear, connect, then apply the technique and it should work with less force. It's not that force isn't used. But the force should not be a struggle. This is something universal in Martial Arts.

When a lock or a throw becomes a struggle then it's either because the timing is missed, the wrong technique is being used, or my opponent's timing for counter was better than my timing for the application of a technique.

I think he will eventually get there as long as he spends time trying to use Aikido in sparring.

Unfortunately, the current classical training of Aikido (which I suspect to be less than the totality of what Daito-ryu training was) doesn't really provide a foundation for developing what he apparently wants to develop (something that works with what he's been developing in his MMA training). He's going to have to spend some time working out how to flow with his other skills until there's a real opening for his Aikido. Mainline Aikido focuses a lot on arms-length grappling, which makes the transitions from striking harder to learn. He's likely going to have to work it out, himself.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Critical-thinking is important. MMA training is perfect for MMA competitions

All styles are self-contained. Chess works perfectly on a chessboard.

Under what conditions could MMA be wrong?

If you were training for a Tomiki Aikido competition. Or fencing. I suspect it's not great at preparing for either.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In all MA systems, there will always be someone who can't fight and calls those who can as "low level".

You seem to misunderstand the reference here. Folks have referred to his Aikido as not very advanced, not calling him low-level because he chooses to learn to fight.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The problem is if your opponent doesn't resist, you will never learn how to take advantage on his resisting.

For example, when you apply wrist lock on me, if I raise my elbow up, what will you do?

In other words, the Aikido train how to deal with yielding force, but they don't train how to deal with resisting force.

You can learn those things without real resistance. There are drills that feed a partial counter, to lead to the next technique. But this isn't really resistance, because your partner isn't trying to stop you - just feeding you what you need to convert to the next technique. Aikido absolutely trains how to deal with changes in force (either added or removed). They just do it in a cooperative manner, where your partner is doing what you expect - which is useful, but IMO limited in what it can train reliably and efficiently.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

At least 3 Aikido BB told me this.

By the description you gave earlier, that's incorrect. I've done Aikido drills specifically for learning to deal with changes in movement and force that stymie a technique, and how to flow to the next one, and that was just as a visitor. Heck, they have techniques that, as far as I can tell, are specifically about reversing when the input changes.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Very true.

I don't understand things like the No Resistance example.

Here is a good example of yielding (no resistance).

- A applies arm dragging to pull B.
- B borrows A's pulling force, add B's own pushing, and takes A down.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

how to flow to the next one,

This is the way that how the long fist system trains joint locking.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

MMA at the moment.

Not been to an MMA establishment before.

• Does yours have a named instructor?
• How often do you train per week?
• What does a week's training consist of?
• Are you a fan of wrist locks?
• When and how do you know which techniques are the best to focus your training time on?

 

[Taiji Rebel]

This is the way that how the long fist system trains joint locking.

This drill looks a lot like dancing

 

[drop bear]

Not been to an MMA establishment before.

• Does yours have a named instructor?
• How often do you train per week?
• What does a week's training consist of?
• Are you a fan of wrist locks?
• When and how do you know which techniques are the best to focus your training time on?

Yes
Four to five days when I am committed
No gi, gi,striking,wrestling,sparring.
Yes.
I focus on whatever entertains me.

 

[Taiji Rebel]

Yes
Four to five days when I am committed
No gi, gi,striking,wrestling,sparring.
Yes.
I focus on whatever entertains me.

You focus on whatever entertains. Does this mean you are in charge of your own training?

 

[drop bear]

You focus on whatever entertains. Does this mean you are in charge of your own training?

No. But there is some flexibility