Taiji Rebel
2nd Black Belt
The wrist-locks in the original videos have really got people bound up in a strange commentary here on this thread
Your thoughts on these locks?
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I see this as well. His efforts now look more like a mixture of what he train vs the principles of Aikido. As someone who tries to stick with Jow Ga through success and failure. I would have liked to see him stay "more true" to the teaching. He forces the lock which means his timing is off or that the lock is being applied at the wrong time.
Joint locks in general should fit like the teeth of gears. The movement should flow in the gaps of resistance. They shouldn't have to be forced. While force is used. It should be the force that is used to "turn a gear" that has correct connection and not to force the "turning of gears that don't connect." It's that type of efficiency that he should be trying to achieve. Don't force it, find the gaps of the gear, connect, then apply the technique and it should work with less force. It's not that force isn't used. But the force should not be a struggle. This is something universal in Martial Arts.
When a lock or a throw becomes a struggle then it's either because the timing is missed, the wrong technique is being used, or my opponent's timing for counter was better than my timing for the application of a technique.
I think he will eventually get there as long as he spends time trying to use Aikido in sparring.
lol. we are known for that here. It happens.The wrist-locks in the original videos have really got people bound up in a strange commentary here on this thread
Rokas is still learning. He was given enough resistance to learn. Which is important to any development of technique application. It makes no sense to go 100% when you are trying to learn how to apply a technique. If you came at me at 100% then I'm not going to try to learn how to use Jow Ga techniques. I'm going come back at you 100% with stuff that I already can use without issue.
Not going at 100% doesn't invalidate the training nor does it invalidate the effectiveness of a technique.
I personally don't like the perception of "Oh he wasn't going full offensive" because it gives the assumption that a technique won't work at 100%. Stuff like that begins to sound like an excuse. Especially since I can go to any MMA, BBJ, or Muay Thai training location and see the same thing where sparring isn't going at 100% and people are learning to work their techniques in the same manner. It's valid for them but not for Rokas?
If you watch his earlier attempts, you can clearly see that he has improved with his attempts to apply the techniques. The only difference is that his attempts now looks like the engine of wrestling and not Aikidio.
At 33:05,
"Peter: The first thing you should say is 'Cool, awesome let's test [sparring/fighting] that. And if you've got something cool that I don't know about that it works, I'm gonna put it in my game.' So, 'Thank you for teaching me that. Thank you for coming.' So not, 'That's BS that won't work.' But, 'Hey fantastic let’s test that out. Let's see and I'd love to learn from you if that works.'
Rokas: But, the testing has to happen.
Peter: Well yeah or if it doesn't happen why should you believe anybody. It's just make believe land."
Martial Arts Journey
Jan 5, 2019
While many of us consider ourselves good critical thinkers in this talk with Peter Boghossian it becomes quickly clear that critical thinking is not as self-evident as it seems, be it in martial arts or any other field. Join me and Peter Boghossian in this talk on how to develop critical thinking, how to be honest with yourself, how to test your ideas against reality and much more.
Taiji Rebel
2nd Black Belt
Critical-thinking is important. MMA training is perfect for MMA competitions 
All styles are self-contained. Chess works perfectly on a chessboard.
Under what conditions could MMA be wrong?
All styles are self-contained. Chess works perfectly on a chessboard.
Under what conditions could MMA be wrong?
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I meant Jeff seems to be helping Rokas ("I stalled.") learn his aikido in that session. However, the way Rokas is using those aikido techniques may or may not work against an alive opponent in open rules. It's up to Rokas to continue to experiment and improve his skills.
I agree.
That's how training is supposed to be. Even if you are of the same skill. When your training partner is trying to learn a technique you. You only give him enough resistance to learn it, there is no need to dominate him with 100% force because it doesn't benefit learning. Jeff doesn't know Aikido, so it is even more important that Rokas gets enough resistance that will allow him to "figure things out." Even with that said, he got more resistance in this video than in his previous videos.
Taiji Rebel
2nd Black Belt
If we are going off-topic and flowing with fights in movies 
I agree and there's nothing wrong with that because Rokas is still learning how to apply his Aikido. My personal thoughts are that Rokas would learn faster if he were to try to apply his Aikido on someone who may not be as skilled in sensing what is happening. If I were him I would first try Aikido on someone who is a beginner in MMA. The reason I say this is because his Aikido skills are beginner level for application. It would give him more chances of what it feels like when it works, which is what he needs now.
What he's getting now is what it feels like when it's countered. Normally this isn't a bad thing, but for Roka it is, because he's experiencing this without knowing what it feels like when the Aikido technique works. That part he's still trying to get. The problem is that he's a beginner in Aikido trying to use Aikido with others who have advanced fighting skills. His sparring partner should match his Aikido skills. It shouldn't be with someone who can tell what he's trying to do with the slightest weight shift.
I think his Aikido would grow faster if he used a sparring partner that matched his Aikdo skills. A beginner with good skills would be better for him.
I agree 100% He will need to continue to experiment and put his Aikido training into practice., He should be careful not to Hybrid his Aikido.. I'm really big in footwork. So big into it that you can sum me up by saying that everything starts with footwork and stance. If I had to give him advice, I would tell him that, there is no Aikido without the footwork. I were to try Aikido then I would first learn how to use the footwork in a fighting context. Footwork and stance provide the structure for everything that flows from a Martial Arts System.
I don't think I would be able to do Jow Ga kung fu without Jow Ga footwork. If I use BJJ footwork then Jow Ga will be impossible.
I would like for him to take a smaller approach like that before trying to do Aikido Wrist locks.
It's fairly easy to resist the twisting/bending of the wrist because it's on the end of a series of pretty mobile joints, the hand is fairly small (ie limited leverage) and is reinforced by some strong muscles
So in my experience wrist locks either require complete control of an isolated elbow or they need to be applied suddenly/unexpectedly
The former happens a fair bit in highly resisted training like BJJ, so is pretty universally accepted as being valid
The latter is predominantly attempted without a viable set up (including these videos here). I think this is because most people learn standing wrist locks from aikido which unfortunately doesn't really teach viable set ups. Unfortunately this tends to result in folk dismissing the whole art of standing wrist locks
So in my experience wrist locks either require complete control of an isolated elbow or they need to be applied suddenly/unexpectedly
The former happens a fair bit in highly resisted training like BJJ, so is pretty universally accepted as being valid
The latter is predominantly attempted without a viable set up (including these videos here). I think this is because most people learn standing wrist locks from aikido which unfortunately doesn't really teach viable set ups. Unfortunately this tends to result in folk dismissing the whole art of standing wrist locks
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
There are dabblers in every style, aikido and Jow Ga are no exceptions.
I had stated that when my sensei works a technique on me, I find it irresistible. I did not say we were ball-room dancing or playing Patty-cake. I don’t understand why you felt you needed any clarification on my statements. It seems you were trying to imply something. You don’t know my school. Why would you do that?
I'm not a fan of the term "Testing the technique" or "Pressure testing the technique" 90% of the time the technique isn't the issue. The issue is the person trying to use the technique.
1. A person who thinks there's something wrong with the technique will try to adjust the technique so that it works.
2. A person who thinks there's something wrong with how they are trying to use the technique, will adjust themselves.so that they can better use the technique.
As Kung Fu Wang would say
#2> #1
As I will say, Using 2 will make you better at what you train. Using 1 will cause you to make unnecessary changes to a technique and eventually the technique will break and not work.
This is the thing that I didn't like about how Jow Ga kung fu was often taught. Because no one used the techniques in fighting, no one would know how to "set it up" One thing I'm going to change when I train someone is that I will start to include the SetUps as part of the drill.
I wasn't referring to a specific school. My statement applies to anyone regardless of school or individual training. It wasn't specifically directed at you
You asked me about Akido. I gave examples to show that Aikido wasn't the only system that my statement applied to. Then I used my school as an example of how Jow Ga was no exception to the statements that I made. "
I don't have problems with using my school as an example, because that's just the nature of many non MMA schools who often have a wider range of student interest than what you see in MMA gyms. In MMA gyms the interest are much narrow in comparison with the non-MMA school who have students with various reasons for taking martial arts. One of the first things I did at my school was to Narrow the Interest by specifically focusing more on function than "fun and discipline." Which is why I got labelled with the "cares more about fighting" accusation from other instructor and the Sifu of the school.
The irony is that the people who are interested in function will find fun and discipline in funcition. Function is not void of these things. It's just not fun for people who only want Exercise or only want Discipline.
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drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
And wrestling has the clinch work and arm control system to make wrist locks better. But they don't do wrist locks.
Flying Crane
Sr. Grandmaster
Well no, we need to go a bit farther back. I had made a statement that my sensei can apply the techniques in an overwhelming way. That statement was not originally directed at you, was not a response to something you had said, but you commented with something like “was that fighting, or doing aikido”.
My point is, why would you question if that was meant for combat, or some other abstract something? I don’t even know what else it would be: of course what we are training is meant for combat/conflict. Was I fighting my sensei? No, of course not. He demonstrates techniques that he teaches us. In that context, I can certainly feel the power and authority he can bring to the table. But I am there to learn aikido, not to challenge the sensei with my kung fu. The training is meant for combat. That is understood.
In all MA systems, there will always be someone who can't fight and calls those who can as "low level".
