Young Sociopaths

[shesulsa]

MODERATOR NOTE: Please refrain from insults and keep the conversation polite and respectful.

G. Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Moderator

 

[Kreth]

maybe these kids could not destabilise between the two

"I do not think it means what you think it means."

 

[MJS]

Okay I've finished work so lets get started.

Fighting is entertainment the people that pay for it are entertained by fighting.....lets that sink in..im not talking about the fighters...now those boys were said to have beat that man up for entertainment, there was a vibe in the forum that seemed to think that this made them evil,how can this be when have the population finds entertainment in violence, maybe these kids could not destabilise between the two,not everyone is right in their head you know,not every one thinks the same way,life effects people differently.

So you're saying that these kids could not determine that there is a difference between a ring sport, and taking a baseball bat to someone? Come on.

now im not saying its right what they did I was talking about how they could,what mind frame has someone have to be in in order to do an attack like that,surely they must have something wrong with them..thats my point....and don’t see how punishment is best way...I don’t have an alternative, I joined this debate to see if anyone else had one,or at least what you thought, some of you just ignored my argument and picked one statement as the problem,which is good because it supports my argument ''lets not try to figure out why this person wrote that,no lets just deal with what is in front of us, because that’s easier and doesn’t need as much brain power'

Why does someone need to have a mental inbalance in order to commit a crime? You still have not answered that! Not everyone that commits a crime is mentally disturbed.

Im going to ignore your points and just concentrate on the core issues

Thats fine, but just remember that it was you who brought up the sport debate, not me! I think what you're ignoring, is the fact that I, as well as many others are bringing up some good points, and you are getting frustrated because people disagree with you. You are looking at this from 1 point of view...your point of view, and you're not interested in what anyone else has to say. This is a debate forum sir. That being said, disagreements are going to happen. It is hard at times to always make sure that the readers are understanding what the posters are saying. That being said, if you can't debate in a friendly fashion, not taking shots or sniping at people, then perhaps this debate is not for you.

Mike

 

[Martial Tucker]

Okay I've finished work so lets get started.

Fighting is entertainment the people that pay for it are entertained by fighting.....lets that sink in..im not talking about the fighters...now those boys were said to have beat that man up for entertainment, there was a vibe in the forum that seemed to think that this made them evil,how can this be when have the population finds entertainment in violence

Again, the vast majority of the population finds sex entertaining. Thank goodness, only a very small portion of the population would find rape entertaining. They are totally different things. Same basic act, but one is consensual, the other is forced. Your logic would tend to excuse the rapist because society finds sex entertaining.

thats my point....and don’t see how punishment is best way...I don’t have an alternative

Then you have no argument. End of story.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Okay I've finished work so lets get started.

Fighting is entertainment the people that pay for it are entertained by fighting.....lets that sink in..im not talking about the fighters...now those boys were said to have beat that man up for entertainment, there was a vibe in the forum that seemed to think that this made them evil,how can this be when have the population finds entertainment in violence, maybe these kids could not destabilise between the two,not everyone is right in their head you know,not every one thinks the same way,life effects people differently.

This is actually getting amusing. People like watching organized violence because it showcases the best of humanity....physical courage, tenacity, endurance, desire to succeed, and many other positive traits. The average human, however, is able to distinguish between two courageous human beings, who engage in a contest of strength, skill and courage, and two low life jackals who decide that they will showcase their 'strength' by beating homeless men for entertainment. The former represents the best in humanity, the later, the absolute WORST! If the average person understands this, instinctively, why is it that you cannot?

now im not saying its right what they did I was talking about how they could,what mind frame has someone have to be in in order to do an attack like that,surely they must have something wrong with them..thats my point....and don’t see how punishment is best way...I don’t have an alternative, I joined this debate to see if anyone else had one,or at least what you thought, some of you just ignored my argument and picked one statement as the problem,which is good because it supports my argument ''lets not try to figure out why this person wrote that,no lets just deal with what is in front of us, because that’s easier and doesn’t need as much brain power'

Oh, I understand perfectly well the mind frame of someone who does this....I deal with them every day. They felt entitled to the sense of power they felt in being able to hurt and humiliate another human being. We call those people 'sociopaths'. They don't have guilt or remorse, they simply FEAR punishment.

That is why 'punishment' is the most effective way of controlling these parasites. Why do you think they beat up homeless men? Because they are inherently cowards. These 'men' fear the consequences of attacking someone capable of defending themselves, so they attack the defenseless. It is clear you are unaware of certain basic realities. I respect your right to an opinion, but I have the right to point out it is based on greatly flawed logic.

Im going to ignore your points and just concentrate on the core issues

You mean that you are going to ignore any points to the contrary, and concentrate on the sound of your own voice? In that case there's not much that I can add. :asian:

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Oh, I understand perfectly well the mind frame of someone who does this....I deal with them every day. They felt entitled to the sense of power they felt in being able to hurt and humiliate another human being. We call those people 'sociopaths'. They don't have guilt or remorse, they simply FEAR punishment.

Yup, that's why I titled the thread "Young Sociopaths". They have no excuse - excepting that they are rabid dogs. Like many people, I had some pretty bad experiences as a child (which I'm not going to go into online) but these experiences never once put even the thought in my head of taking a baseball bat and beating a homeless man to death. No, these boys were privileged and probably spoiled and have absolutely no excuse for their murderous rampage. Blame society? Blame their parents? No, I don't think so... Blame the little sociopaths.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Yup, that's why I titled the thread "Young Sociopaths". They have no excuse - excepting that they are rabid dogs. Like many people, I had some pretty bad experiences as a child (which I'm not going to go into online) but these experiences never once put even the thought in my head of taking a baseball bat and beating a homeless man to death. No, these boys were privileged and probably spoiled and have absolutely no excuse for their murderous rampage. Blame society? Blame their parents? No, I don't think so... Blame the little sociopaths.

I'm going to throw out a prediction here....these kids came from middle or upper-middle class homes. They grew up spoiled and pampered. This isn't the result of mistreatment, it's the result of boys who were given everything but discipline, and brought up to believe that they could get away with whatever they wanted.

Sociopaths are only concerned with one person....themselves, and anyone who has something they want, whether it be money, sex, or someone else's dignity, is a potential victim. Do we need to understand these types of people? Of course....and many of us already intimately do.

 

[Martial Tucker]

I'm going to throw out a prediction here....these kids came from middle or upper-middle class homes. They grew up spoiled and pampered. This isn't the result of mistreatment, it's the result of boys who were given everything but discipline, and brought up to believe that they could get away with whatever they wanted.
.

I totally agree, and your post is almost word-for-word what I was getting ready to post also.

 

[Jonathan Randall]

I'm going to throw out a prediction here....these kids came from middle or upper-middle class homes. They grew up spoiled and pampered. This isn't the result of mistreatment, it's the result of boys who were given everything but discipline, and brought up to believe that they could get away with whatever they wanted.

Sociopaths are only concerned with one person....themselves, and anyone who has something they want, whether it be money, sex, or someone else's dignity, is a potential victim. Do we need to understand these types of people? Of course....and many of us already intimately do.

Bingo!

The frightening thing is that the only thing that made these particular attacks unique is that they were caught on tape. Unfortunately, sociopathic punks such as our two young heroes (sarcasm), commit attacks such as this everyday throughout the country.

 

[Flatlander]

I can understand some of what Odin is saying, insofar as being overrun with violent media in the formative years can desensitize kids to the reality of violence. In a way, it is somewhat topical insofar as it may contribute to a portion of the explanation. However, it doesn't really speak to the solution, as I don't think that desensitization translates directly to actually committing violence. There are a few twists and intersections in the road between. Further, senseless violence such as beating on homeless people has less to do with "media conditioning", and has more to do with young adults unable to understand how to behave appropriately, or lawfully, in society. I agree with J.R.. This is a parenting issue (mind you, how many things aren't?). I don't know enough about psychology to know if it's actually fixable. But there's no way anything less than incarceration is warranted here.

 

[sgtmac_46]

People who cannot contain their urges to harm (or kill) people repeatedly for no apparent reason are assumed to suffer from some mental illness. However, they may be more cruel than crazy, they may be choosing not to control their urges, they know right from wrong, they know exactly what they're doing, and they are definitely NOT insane, at least according to the consensus of most scholars (Samenow 2004).

http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/428/428lect16.htm

This article pretty clearly sums up why sociopaths are NOT crazy, that their behavior is a concious choice, and it's not possible to treat sociopathology like an 'illness'. Simply put, the problem isn't something wrong WITH part of them, it's that they themselves are wrong.

 

[MJS]

Came across this:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10880480/from/RL.3/

I found a few interesting points.

1:

Someone posted a shot from the 1971 film "A Clockwork Orange," a cult classic science fiction account of a depraved gang. The movie begins with the gang's just-for-kicks clubbing of a homeless man.

Hmmm...looks like they had nothing better to do that night. I guess nobody goes around beating people up for the fun of it.

2:

Forensic psychologist Harley Stock said he believes friends and family of teenagers who get into something this antisocial would surely notice changes.

Yes, you would figure that parents, friends, etc. would notice a behavior change. Many times though, it goes un-noticed.

 

[BlueDragon1981]

I agree with some of what Odin is saying also...this is not something that just relates to them. It is becoming a problem in today's society.

They happened to do it so they need to be punished. (maybe even beaten the way they beat their victims....but then you can argue two wrongs don't make a right) We should not just ignore the fact that people today grow up with no discipline at all. I have heard you should not hit your child ever....blah blah blah....experts sometimes make things worse. I was brought up with moderate discipline....well in todays standards strick. We sometimes would have something such as a belt used in our discipline. That combined with my martial arts has gave me a good ground for life. Many kids get away with way to much.

Parents (and i'm not making excuses) are whipped in todays society. A dual income is almost a must. Meaning parents are away. People don't sit down for dinner together any more, etc. The financial strain keeps growing. Stress builds and now they have a great deal to worry about....how am i going to keep my house...how can i save to get my kids through school....and the list goes on. So I believe some of them are so down themselves they may not notice.

Should they get punished. Yes they should in my opinion. Should they be given a chance to redeem themselves. Yes they should.

 

[Odin]

So you're saying that these kids could not determine that there is a difference between a ring sport, and taking a baseball bat to someone? Come on.

No it was just to make a point of violence being entertaining.I don't know the kids nor their mental state so I couldn't tell you if they did,the human mind is a complex thing.

Why does someone need to have a mental inbalance in order to commit a crime? You still have not answered that! Not everyone that commits a crime is mentally disturbed.

Your right they don't,but then you have two types of crime (well you have more but for argument sake) you have Morally wrong crimes (i.e. rape or murder etc)then you have crimes that go against the government order of things (i.e. tax dodging,credit card fraud etc)....
For someone to commit a moral wrong crime there has to be something wrong with them either emotionally or because of illness because everyone knows that killing a man is wrong everyone knows what happens when you do something like that,for you to actively go up to a man and kill him you have to be psychotic HOW COULD YOU BE ANYTHING ELSE?think about it,why has the child done something like that while another kid sits in the park playing football?what is the difference between the two children what went wrong?
see you have temporary insanity aswel anger plays apart in this,I believe everyone in this forum has done something really stupid while extremely angry,either physically or verbally which would be totally out of your character,but you still did it,it may not be killing someone fair enough but then when have you been in a situation where you were really anger and had the choice to?now that last point is in no way reference to what happened with them kids its merely to show how fragile a human mind can be and to shake the image of 'evil people' ....I mean say you were having a bad day,you lost your job you came home early and then found your wife in bed with another man,you go crazy but you don't try and kill him instead you storm out the house as you walk down the street a drunken homeless man throws a cabbage at your head....you snap go mad and roundhouse kick him in the head,he falls hits his head on the curb and dies...you don't know this because you walked off....temporary insanity.



Thats fine, but just remember that it was you who brought up the sport debate, not me! I think what you're ignoring, is the fact that I, as well as many others are bringing up some good points, and you are getting frustrated because people disagree with you. You are looking at this from 1 point of view...your point of view, and you're not interested in what anyone else has to say. This is a debate forum sir. That being said, disagreements are going to happen. It is hard at times to always make sure that the readers are understanding what the posters are saying. That being said, if you can't debate in a friendly fashion, not taking shots or sniping at people, then perhaps this debate is not for you.

By that I meant im not going to continually explain one point that was made.....or even that was given as an example,it seems pointless to me,sorry dude,and its not that im not interested I just dont see where that's going,forum are hard to read sometimes since you cant tell tone all the time.

TO FORUM-->I'LL TAKE THIS TIME TO SAY PEACE TO EVERYONE,I'LL ADMIT I WAS A BIT HARSH YESTERDAY THROUGH A LITTLE BIT OF FRUSTRATION AND ALL SO I THOUGHT I'D SAY SORRY IF I WAS RUDE TO ANYONE(")......saying that though I really need to thank you mjs...after I left work you had winded me up so bad I needed a drink so I thought forget the gym tonight and instead off I went to a bar with a workmate and then proceeded to chat up the bar manager and got her number,managed to get hustled by a girl playing pool and got her number (so I still kinder won) and got the number of this beautiful Mediterranean girl with a bum that would make you cry,so thanks to you dude I've got dates all week.(")thanks man!

 

[Odin]

Again, the vast majority of the population finds sex entertaining. Thank goodness, only a very small portion of the population would find rape entertaining. They are totally different things. Same basic act, but one is consensual, the other is forced. Your logic would tend to excuse the rapist because society finds sex entertaining.

So you'd have to be not right in the head then to find rape entertaining then right?(")

Then you have no argument. End of story.

Why is that end of story?Im hear to see what others think?why would that be the end of story?...hmmmm did you know (quick fact here) that scientist reckon that the only reason that man has evolved so much compare to other species is due to our ability to communicate better then any other creature on earth,its the sharing of information and idea's that has built our world.good or bad.

 

[Odin]

"I do not think it means what you think it means."

Thats that dman auto spell check...whoops i didtnt actually mean to use that word.

 

[Odin]

This is actually getting amusing. People like watching organized violence because it showcases the best of humanity....physical courage, tenacity, endurance, desire to succeed, and many other positive traits. The average human, however, is able to distinguish between two courageous human beings, who engage in a contest of strength, skill and courage, and two low life jackals who decide that they will showcase their 'strength' by beating homeless men for entertainment. The former represents the best in humanity, the later, the absolute WORST! If the average person understands this, instinctively, why is it that you cannot?

My point exactly!! why cant there must be something mentaly wrong with them.Thats what Ive been saying all along,if you cant distinguish between the two you must be mentally ill....evil is a man made word,to me it doesnt exist.No one can be plain evil.
So now you've agreed with me what would you do?If's someone is mentaly Ill its not really there fault is it?(")


Oh, I understand perfectly well the mind frame of someone who does this....I deal with them every day. They felt entitled to the sense of power they felt in being able to hurt and humiliate another human being. We call those people 'sociopaths'. They don't have guilt or remorse, they simply FEAR punishment.

If they feared punishment.........then why would they do????Obviously they dont.
'sense of power'?yuo cant really generalize everyone I dont think thats true,we dont know these kids,we dont know they're lifes we know of one incident!and known of us were actually there,we read it on the interent.

 

[modarnis]

'sense of power'?yuo cant really generalize everyone I dont think thats true,we dont know these kids,we dont know they're lifes we know of one incident!and known of us were actually there,we read it on the interent.[/B]

You are certainly fond of generalizing that they are mentall ill if they commit offenses. Sgt Mac is correct in his assessment. While he and I work in different parts of the criminal justice system, we are both all too familiar with the patterns of behavior of predators. Luckily for me, as a prosecutor, I deal with these jackals after they are arrested, so I have the benefit of knowing what they are when I meet them. Sgt, and other officers don't have that luxury on the street.
Criminals are victim selectors. Whether its the car left at the convenience store with the keys in the ignition, easy access to a persons personal identifiers for identity theft, the old lady with money out in line at the store, or looking for someone physically weaker to assault, rape, torture, or kill, criminals seek the path of least resistance to ply their trade.

If they were merely in it for the fun of it, why did they choose a homeless guy instead of a bartender, storekeeper, karate school owner etc? Short answer, they figured a homeless guy, already somewhat powerless in the grand scheme of the system wouldn't fight back. My further opinion is that they also figured that people would be less likely to believe a homeless guy's story, than upstanding middle class teens

 

[Martial Tucker]

So you'd have to be not right in the head then to find rape entertaining then right?(")

I will agree with your point only this far: Anyone who enjoys a violent crime (NOT to be confused with a violent sport) is in some way "not right in the head".

HOWEVER: This does not equate to that person somehow being not responsible for their actions. What it does say is that said person is dangerous to society. This is why we have prisons. To protect the majority of the people from the dangerous ones. Why violent people do what they do is of secondary importance to the indisputable fact that they are dangerous to society, and must be controlled.

You have offered nothing but excuses for people who commit violent crimes, but have offered no alternative to inprisonment. Until you come up with an intelligent alternative, there is really nothing more to discuss.
Feel free to go sit in a psychology library and stare at your navel for a few weeks to try to come up with an explanation as to why some people commit violent crimes. While you are there, you might take a moment to be thankful that we do lock up violent people so that you are safer from being attacked while you ponder on all of this.

BTW, while we're at it, let's just release the big cats from all of the local zoos. Sure, they kill people, but they aren't really aware of what they are doing, so they're not responsible, right? I mean, they can't help who they are. Why keep them locked up in a cage? Let's let them all run free while we try to figure out why they are carnivores, and maybe even how we can convert them to herbivores.

 

[Odin]

You are certainly fond of generalizing that they are mentall ill if they commit offenses. Sgt Mac is correct in his assessment. While he and I work in different parts of the criminal justice system, we are both all too familiar with the patterns of behavior of predators.

Oh really thats interesting,have you ever spoke to the 'predators' (lol) about their crimes?or why they commited them?
A question why do you think them kids did such a thing,and you didnt when you was young,listen man I'll be real maybe Im wrong but I beleive things happen,all things happen for a reason,not a mystic reason but a scientifc reason,if you walked through a park and a ball hit your head,the case wouldnt simply be a ball hit your head, it would be a ball hit your head because it was thrown by a boy in your direction because he was trying to throw it to his mate but you were in the way because you didnt notice the ball because you were thinking of what to have for dinner because lastnigght your wife cooked something rubbish because..because you cannot take things skin deep..I just think that maybe we should look at the reasons behind things.who knows though maybe Im wrong.

Luckily for me, as a prosecutor, I deal with these jackals after they are arrested, so I have the benefit of knowing what they are when I meet them.

Innocent until proven guilty hey??dman that statement you just made really worries me.


Criminals are victim selectors. Whether its the car left at the convenience store with the keys in the ignition, easy access to a persons personal identifiers for identity theft, the old lady with money out in line at the store, or looking for someone physically weaker to assault, rape, torture, or kill, criminals seek the path of least resistance to ply their trade.
if they were merely in it for the fun of it, why did they choose a homeless guy instead of a bartender, storekeeper, karate school owner etc? Short answer, they figured a homeless guy, already somewhat powerless in the grand scheme of the system wouldn't fight back. My further opinion is that they also figured that people would be less likely to believe a homeless guy's story, than upstanding middle class teens

You know that game you played as a kid where you would just keep asking someone why? till they couldnt be bothered to answer anymore,try that with your view of 'the preditors' write it down then read it to yourself,just keep asking why the criminal did the crime then ask why again and than why again and see if you come up with anything...people are people man....regardless of what they have done,im not saying dont punish them Im merely asking if anyone could think of an alternative.its not a simple question it doesnt have a simple answer,if it did we would have found it already.
You guys are right though I am a very empathic person.Hey maybe Im wrong maybe we should just lock em up and kill them all hey!king kong syndrome lets just destroy anything we dont understand!yeah!