Yip Man - Yuen Kai San realtion

[zuti car]

Canada Vancouver Chinese newspaper

This article is on Chinese but basically ,a man claims he is the 8th and last Yuen Kai San's disciple ,he also claims Yip Man was Yuen Kai San's fourth disciple. I did't get everything well so, if someone can translate this accurately I think it may be interesting

 

[Marnetmar]

I thought Sum Nung was his only disciple and he only taught Yip Man informally.

 

[zuti car]

I thought Sum Nung was his only disciple and he only taught Yip Man informally.

Me too but we may be wrong . This man said he never met Yip Man because he started his training after 1949 . Also he said he never learnt knives and some other thing . In the article there is something about wing chun records of YKS wing chun but I didn't understand are these records written by YKS or the person who is giving the interview .

 

[futsaowingchun]

Since Ip Man stated his sifu was Chan wa shun then later Leung Bik its safe to say YKS Taught ip Man only a little if anything.

 

[zuti car]

Since Ip Man stated his sifu was Chan wa shun then later Leung Bik its safe to say YKS Taught ip Man only a little if anything.

Leung Bik most probably never existed , on the other hand I don't believe in this story ether , at least not completely . Although I think Yip Man's wing chun was significantly influenced by YKS I don't believe he was his formal disciple . What is possible and most probable YKS helped Yip Man to refine his already complete art .

 

[johnsimmons]

Leung Bik most probably never existed , on the other hand I don't believe in this story ether , at least not completely . Although I think Yip Man's wing chun was significantly influenced by YKS I don't believe he was his formal disciple . What is possible and most probable YKS helped Yip Man to refine his already complete art .

I think you are asking the wrong question. It is not did Leung Bik exist. It should be was Leung Bik Leung Jans natural son.

At the time Leung Jan taught if you were accepted as a close student or apprentice in an occupation you where often adopted into the family of your teacher hence several people may have had a teacher/son relationship with Leung jan and have been spoken of as Leung someone.

 

[zuti car]

I am open to all possibilities but most probable thing is usually the closest to the truth. Yip Man and YKS belonged to same social class and even more same social circles , their families had good relationship , and they spent a significant amount of time together practicing . I am not saying they had teacher - student relationship in a formal way but YKS was Yip Man's senior . It is possible that Yip Man had learned from someone else before or even after his time with YKS but we don't that

 

[futsaowingchun]

Leung Bik most probably never existed , on the other hand I don't believe in this story ether , at least not completely . Although I think Yip Man's wing chun was significantly influenced by YKS I don't believe he was his formal disciple . What is possible and most probable YKS helped Yip Man to refine his already complete art .

Yeah I agree. I don't believe there was a Leung Bik also,However I do believe Ip Man WC changed or improved quiet a lot when he move to HK. I believe Ip Man made up this Leung Bik to protect the identity of another WC sifu who might have exchange information with Ip Man in an informally. It's easy to figure out who this could have been..1.how many High level sifus where in HK around the time Ip Man was there 2. and who was more senior and knowledgeable then himself? There is not many..3. we know Ip Man knew the other WC sifus,so who do we know he was more likely to have traded information with? As a teacher myself,most of my friends are WC sifus so its easy to see how easy it is to share knowledge with just over a conversation or at a tea house that we know Ip Man went to frequently.

 

[dlcox]

This is the story that was passed on to me, I do believe that I have posted this once in the past. Liang Zan had a student known as Fang Hua. He was a classmate of Chen Hua Shun and had the nicknames of Liang Bi Hua and Mu Ren Hua . According to the story he was an adopted disciple of Liang Zan and given the Liang family name, hence, Liang Bi Hua. He was also known for breaking the arms off of the wooden man, hence the name, Mu Ren Hua (Wooden Man Hua). Chen Hua Shun used to affectionately tease him and refer to him as Liang Bi (Fat Liang). Ye Wen held Fang Hua in high regard, both of Ye Wen’s sons officiated at Fang Hua’s funeral. It was told that he was a private man and best known by the nickname he received from Chen Hua Shun……..Liang Bi. I do believe he still has relatives living in Hong Kong.

Personally I don't see the need for Ye Wen to lie about his teachers. Ye Wen Yongchun Quan is not all that different from any other line stemming from Liang Zan. It is a bit more refined in some ways, but Ye Wen also admittedly made some refinements, no different than an other teacher. To be honest I think a lot of the animosity towards Ye Wen is simply jealousy. These controversies didn't really exist when he was alive. After Ye Wen's death the popularity of Yongchun exploded and many have tried, or still are trying, to usurp his throne and claim the popularity title for themselves, by denouncing the legitimacy of his teacher, all the while adding there own suspect history to the fold and claiming it as legit.

 

[kung fu fighter]

I think you are asking the wrong question. It is not did Leung Bik exist. It should be was Leung Bik Leung Jans natural son.

At the time Leung Jan taught if you were accepted as a close student or apprentice in an occupation you where often adopted into the family of your teacher hence several people may have had a teacher/son relationship with Leung jan and have been spoken of as Leung someone.

Makes sense, some people believe Leung Bik was a code name for one of Leung Jan's student Fung Wah.

Does the Lo Kwai family have any records of who Leung Bik really was?

I don't believe there was a Leung Bik also,However I do believe Ip Man WC changed or improved quiet a lot when he move to HK. I believe Ip Man made up this Leung Bik to protect the identity of another WC sifu who might have exchange information with Ip Man in an informally. It's easy to figure out who this could have been..1.how many High level sifus where in HK around the time Ip Man was there 2. and who was more senior and knowledgeable then himself? There is not many..3. we know Ip Man knew the other WC sifus,so who do we know he was more likely to have traded information with? As a teacher myself,most of my friends are WC sifus so its easy to see how easy it is to share knowledge with just over a conversation or at a tea house that we know Ip Man went to frequently.

I agree! even Jiu wan said "When he was reunited with Yip Man in Hong Kong, Yip Man’s Wing Chun was very different from what Jiu Wan had known Yip Man's wing chun to be in Foshan."

 

[johnsimmons]

Does the Lo Kwai family have any records of who Leung Bik really was?


A long time ago our family made a decision to stay out of the politics and disputes. There are many claims out there that are claimed as gospel that we have written evidence to the contrary. If we called anyone on these claims it would accomplish nothing because a zealot of any type does not care about facts or evidence.
I will say 2 things.Some Yip Man WC contains our signatures so we know YM WC has ties to LJ. Who he learned from we can say.
Second there are some student lists of Leung Jan that contain the name Leung Kwai. That is a reference to Lo Kwai.

 

[dlcox]

Does the Lo Kwai family have any records of who Leung Bik really was?


A long time ago our family made a decision to stay out of the politics and disputes. There are many claims out there that are claimed as gospel that we have written evidence to the contrary. If we called anyone on these claims it would accomplish nothing because a zealot of any type does not care about facts or evidence.
I will say 2 things.Some Yip Man WC contains our signatures so we know YM WC has ties to LJ. Who he learned from we can say.
Second there are some student lists of Leung Jan that contain the name Leung Kwai. That is a reference to Lo Kwai.

I have heard that before but was never able to verify that with someone from Lo Kwai's lineage. Thank you!

 

[johnsimmons]

I am very ignorant of wing chun outside of Lo Kwai's teachings. So I have a question. A while back I read Leung Tings Roots book. In it he stated that Leung Bik's grandson lived in Kolou and I though had a picture with him. Why is Leung Tings research on this doubted?
Also has anyone visited Kolou to confirm this?

 

[kung fu fighter]

Some Yip Man WC contains our signatures so we know YM WC has ties to LJ.

Thank you for the reply John!
which Yip Man wing chun contains your Lo Kwai LJ signatures?

 

[Vajramusti]

This is the story that was passed on to me, I do believe that I have posted this once in the past. Liang Zan had a student known as Fang Hua. He was a classmate of Chen Hua Shun and had the nicknames of Liang Bi Hua and Mu Ren Hua . According to the story he was an adopted disciple of Liang Zan and given the Liang family name, hence, Liang Bi Hua. He was also known for breaking the arms off of the wooden man, hence the name, Mu Ren Hua (Wooden Man Hua). Chen Hua Shun used to affectionately tease him and refer to him as Liang Bi (Fat Liang). Ye Wen held Fang Hua in high regard, both of Ye Wen’s sons officiated at Fang Hua’s funeral. It was told that he was a private man and best known by the nickname he received from Chen Hua Shun……..Liang Bi. I do believe he still has relatives living in Hong Kong.

Personally I don't see the need for Ye Wen to lie about his teachers. Ye Wen Yongchun Quan is not all that different from any other line stemming from Liang Zan. It is a bit more refined in some ways, but Ye Wen also admittedly made some refinements, no different than an other teacher. To be honest I think a lot of the animosity towards Ye Wen is simply jealousy. These controversies didn't really exist when he was alive. After Ye Wen's death the popularity of Yongchun exploded and many have tried, or still are trying, to usurp his throne and claim the popularity title for themselves, by denouncing the legitimacy of his teacher, all the while adding there own suspect history to the fold and claiming it as legit.

 

[Vajramusti]

Good post.
Rather than accept Ip Man's own statements about his learning history- people do preposterous post mortems.
Shades of the old saying- success has a thousand fathers

 

[KPM]

Yeah I agree. I don't believe there was a Leung Bik also,However I do believe Ip Man WC changed or improved quiet a lot when he move to HK. I believe Ip Man made up this Leung Bik to protect the identity of another WC sifu who might have exchange information with Ip Man in an informally. It's easy to figure out who this could have been..1.how many High level sifus where in HK around the time Ip Man was there 2. and who was more senior and knowledgeable then himself? There is not many..3. we know Ip Man knew the other WC sifus,so who do we know he was more likely to have traded information with? As a teacher myself,most of my friends are WC sifus so its easy to see how easy it is to share knowledge with just over a conversation or at a tea house that we know Ip Man went to frequently.

I agree. I think Leung Bik was likely a cover story for a number of influences on Ip Man. From Yuen Kay Shan to the Weng Chun guys at Dai Duk Lan to a possible Fung Wah as mentioned. Ip Man had a passion for Wing Chun (like a lot of us) and likely would have sought out and investigated as much Wing Chun as possible (like a lot of us). But back in those days it wasn't as acceptable to depart from your primary Sifu as in is in modern days. People noticed that his Wing Chun being taught in Hong Kong has evolved and was different from what he taught in Foshan. Rather than disrespect his lineage by saying he had learned things from people outside of the family, he attributed his new knowledge to a Kung Fu uncle...Leung Bik. Perfect cover story to save face amongst his lineage family and to avoid giving kudos to people outside the family.

 

[KPM]

I am very ignorant of wing chun outside of Lo Kwai's teachings. So I have a question. A while back I read Leung Tings Roots book. In it he stated that Leung Bik's grandson lived in Kolou and I though had a picture with him. Why is Leung Tings research on this doubted?
Also has anyone visited Kolou to confirm this?

That was a horribly inaccurate book from an historical perspective and I don't think anyone today gives it any credence.

 

[KPM]

Good post.
Rather than accept Ip Man's own statements about his learning history- people do preposterous post mortems.
Shades of the old saying- success has a thousand fathers

Well, that's an interesting statement Joy...given that Dave just stated that Leung Bik never existed as a real person or as Leung Jan's son and was actually a nickname for someone else. That is not something that Ip Man ever stated. It is....another "post mortem." ;-)

 

[Vajramusti]

Well, that's an interesting statement Joy...given that Dave just stated that Leung Bik never existed as a real person or as Leung Jan's son and was actually a nickname for someone else. That is not something that Ip Man ever stated. It is....another "post mortem." ;-)

Look at DLCox's post again. about Leung Jan's adopted son.
The real evidence for me is that the details of Ip Man's wing chun is vastly diffrent from that of his first teacher.
You can think whatever you want.