WTF First Take over step?

[Disco]

Saw this posted elsewhere and thought it would be of interest to MT's TKD folks.

"A few days ago, the National TKD Fed. here in Norway announced that the WTF wants to institute a global membership system where individuals would be registered as WTF members. This is contrary to the prior policy where only NGBs could be members of the WTF.

The reasoning behind the system is plain and simple that the WTF wants more money to promote TKD the way they want it done. They're going to charge $5 per individual member per year, out of which $2 goes to the WTF centrally, $1.50 goes to the data processing company, $1 goes to the continental TKD unions, and $.50 covers administrative expenses for the WTF.".......................

 

[chrispillertkd]

I was under the impression that the WTF only had organizational members, not individual members. Each NGB would be a member of the WTF and the WTF is the IF recognized by the IOC as far as Taekwondo competition is concerned.

If the WTF does begin having individual members that would be a major change fr the organization. The membership fees are obviously to raise money but I was unde the impression the WTF received governmental funding from the ROK gov't. I cold certainly be wrong about that, though.

That all being said, how does this qualify as a first step to a WTF "take over"? The WTF will never control Taekwondo per se.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Disco]

That all being said, how does this qualify as a first step to a WTF "take over"? The WTF will never control Taekwondo per se.

Just playing devil's advocate on this, but let's look at the turmoil that has taken place within the Kukkiwon. There were rumors of a governmental takeover, along with some dirty laundry on some senior members.

The Kukkiwon's main function is to certify black belts and many years ago, the WTF did the same thing. The WTF is the controlling body for the NGB's and the Olympic venue, so one could say that they indeed have control over TKD, at least at the highest attainable level.

Now would it be that much of a stretch to see the Kukkiwon being absorbed by the WTF and in doing so, remove the threat of direct governmental oversight and placate those that want/seek a change from what they may view as a disenfranchised organization that has a less than stellar appearance. Either way, the bottom line to any of this saber rattling is that more money will find it's way into a Korean bank account.

Just saying!.....:mst:

 

[granfire]

If they are relly making the step from school membership to individual membership, it could very well mean they are setting their sights on bigger and better things.

There is enough grumbling going around in other organizations where the leadership has an obvious disregard for the needs of the base, they could actually gather members that way (5 bucks a year, it's a steal of a deal) and gain momentum.

Then again, it's a small country that is setting the precedent, so we'd have to wait it out if it has any impact.

 

[RSweet]

That all being said, how does this qualify as a first step to a WTF "take over"? The WTF will never control Taekwondo per se.

Just playing devil's advocate on this, but let's look at the turmoil that has taken place within the Kukkiwon. There were rumors of a governmental takeover, along with some dirty laundry on some senior members.

The Kukkiwon's main function is to certify black belts and many years ago, the WTF did the same thing. The WTF is the controlling body for the NGB's and the Olympic venue, so one could say that they indeed have control over TKD, at least at the highest attainable level.

Now would it be that much of a stretch to see the Kukkiwon being absorbed by the WTF and in doing so, remove the threat of direct governmental oversight and placate those that want/seek a change from what they may view as a disenfranchised organization that has a less than stellar appearance. Either way, the bottom line to any of this saber rattling is that more money will find it's way into a Korean bank account.


Just saying!.....:mst:

The Korean Ministry of Culture (or something close to that) has been over Kukkiwon for some time. There were a bunch of resignations a few months ago and supposedly David Askinas told on them to the government because they didn't play nice and the government was going to make them take US branch of KKW away from Sang Lee - didn't happen.

So now think about this - Kukkiwon is supervised/run by Korean government - so where do your kukkiwon dollars go?

 

[StudentCarl]

Saw this posted elsewhere and thought it would be of interest to MT's TKD folks.

"A few days ago, the National TKD Fed. here in Norway announced that the WTF wants to institute a global membership system where individuals would be registered as WTF members. This is contrary to the prior policy where only NGBs could be members of the WTF.

The reasoning behind the system is plain and simple that the WTF wants more money to promote TKD the way they want it done. They're going to charge $5 per individual member per year, out of which $2 goes to the WTF centrally, $1.50 goes to the data processing company, $1 goes to the continental TKD unions, and $.50 covers administrative expenses for the WTF.".......................

Sounds like just rumor to me.
1. No source whatsoever.
2. "WTF wants" suggests a desire or wish, not an action or policy.
3. Reasoning according to the poster--opinion with no basis.
4. With no source the money breakdown is too specific to be credible.
30% to 'data processing company'???
5. Norway is the testbed for WTF policies?
6. Why bother? What's the benefit to joining?

 

[chrispillertkd]

The Kukkiwon's main function is to certify black belts and many years ago, the WTF did the same thing. The WTF is the controlling body for the NGB's and the Olympic venue, so one could say that they indeed have control over TKD, at least at the highest attainable level.

Well, no. If the WTF controls TKD because it controls one specific facet of TKD competition (that geared towards participation in the Olympics) then you could just as easily say the KKW controls TKD because it controls one aspect of TKD ranking.

There will never be one organization that "controls" Taekwon-Do. I'm not even sure that would be a good idea (although I'm leaning towards it being a bad idea).

Now would it be that much of a stretch to see the Kukkiwon being absorbed by the WTF and in doing so, remove the threat of direct governmental oversight and placate those that want/seek a change from what they may view as a disenfranchised organization that has a less than stellar appearance. Either way, the bottom line to any of this saber rattling is that more money will find it's way into a Korean bank account.

Just saying!.....:mst:

Ahh, the good of "governmental funding/sponsorship/whatever" raises its head again.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Disco]

"Well, no. If the WTF controls TKD because it controls one specific facet of TKD competition (that geared towards participation in the Olympics) then you could just as easily say the KKW controls TKD because it controls one aspect of TKD ranking."

I offered up the point that the WTF at one time issued rankings and could just as easily do it again, thus replacing the Kukkiwon's status. The Kukkiwon was an adjunct created from the WTF, not the other way around. There is another thread that just listed that the Kukkiwon is again undergoing a mass reform, so things may be on the cusp of additional transformations.

There will never be one organization that "controls" Taekwon-Do.

This is true at the grassroots/local levels, but when we get into the higher stratus where the real money gets involved, there is always one focal point that has control and that's the WTF. They allow countries to become a "member" of the WTF and in doing so they create control over who, what and where. As I stated prior, they have control of TKD at the "highest" level and that is for now the Olympic venue. Haven't the slightest idea of how many TKD organizations there are out there, but I'll wager a guess of at least 20. None of them have any real international implications with regards to TKD at the so-called elite level, so in the real scheme of things, they only offer a venue for a piece of paper that says you now have a Dan ranking and we've all seen and heard stories that some won't honor from so and so and so forth. So now imagine that everyone can now become a "member" of the WTF and they now issue Dan rankings again and now you have the one and only "Korean Official" world wide everybody can join for $5 bucks ranking organization. If I can perceive this power shift and money drop, it's not much of a stretch that the Korean home office has speculated on the same issue.

Personally, I really don't give a flying fig who is anointed the Czar of TKD, for the vast majority of folks who train will never attain that Olympic status and those that may, will still have to put up with political BS and most likely be overlooked and/or turned away. It's all about the almighty dollar and it has been since the inception of the "sport" concept.

 

[chrispillertkd]

"Well, no. If the WTF controls TKD because it controls one specific facet of TKD competition (that geared towards participation in the Olympics) then you could just as easily say the KKW controls TKD because it controls one aspect of TKD ranking."

I offered up the point that the WTF at one time issued rankings and could just as easily do it again, thus replacing the Kukkiwon's status. The Kukkiwon was an adjunct created from the WTF, not the other way around. There is another thread that just listed that the Kukkiwon is again undergoing a mass reform, so things may be on the cusp of additional transformations.

Then the only thing you can really say is that the South Korean government controls TKD and that only insofar as people are interested in the Olympics.

There will never be one organization that "controls" Taekwon-Do.

This is true at the grassroots/local levels, but when we get into the higher stratus where the real money gets involved, there is always one focal point that has control and that's the WTF. They allow countries to become a "member" of the WTF and in doing so they create control over who, what and where.

Which I would hazard to say the majority of people involved in TKD don't care about. The people who are interested in controlling TKD organizations might care (see the threads about USAT that were on here not so long ago), and people who want to compete in the Olympics would be interested in the WTF, but that's about it. I know several world level Taekwon-Do competitors in the ITF and they couldn't care less about the WTF "controlling" anything.

As I stated prior, they have control of TKD at the "highest" level and that is for now the Olympic venue. Haven't the slightest idea of how many TKD organizations there are out there, but I'll wager a guess of at least 20. None of them have any real international implications with regards to TKD at the so-called elite level,

Can't say I agree. Or that this is accurate. YMMV given your personal experiences, of course.

so in the real scheme of things, they only offer a venue for a piece of paper that says you now have a Dan ranking and we've all seen and heard stories that some won't honor from so and so and so forth. So now imagine that everyone can now become a "member" of the WTF and they now issue Dan rankings again and now you have the one and only "Korean Official" world wide everybody can join for $5 bucks ranking organization. If I can perceive this power shift and money drop, it's not much of a stretch that the Korean home office has speculated on the same issue.

They probably have speculated on it. But when the rubber hits the road and you're talking about Taekwon-Do instead of just controlling who gets to comete in what tournament then things get complicated. If you're interested in the actual martial art style of TKD then things tend to get complicated.

Personally, I really don't give a flying fig who is anointed the Czar of TKD, for the vast majority of folks who train will never attain that Olympic status and those that may, will still have to put up with political BS and most likely be overlooked and/or turned away. It's all about the almighty dollar and it has been since the inception of the "sport" concept.

And it's attitudes like this, which are probably shared by the vast majority of people involved in TKD, that will mean the WTF - or any single organization - will never control Taekwon-Do. Apathy about their supposed "authority" will see to it that there's always another option.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Disco]

As I stated prior, they have control of TKD at the "highest" level and that is for now the Olympic venue. Haven't the slightest idea of how many TKD organizations there are out there, but I'll wager a guess of at least 20. None of them have any real international implications with regards to TKD at the so-called elite level,

Can't say I agree. Or that this is accurate. YMMV given your personal experiences, of course.

OK, your opinion and your entitled to it, but just for discussion sake, if you feel that the Olympic TKD venue is not the "highest" level, then just what would you consider to be the it? Now since one aspect of your rebuttal stems from the other, by you not agreeing, it automatically gives license to being not accurate.

I know several world level Taekwon-Do competitors in the ITF

World level in what sense. If you don't think the Olympics are the pinnacle for TKD, how can an ITF (3 different segments) be considered world level competitor, except within their own realm of the ITF. Now if you are seriously comparing an ITF competitor to an Olympic competitor, I feel your comparing apples to oranges, even though that ITF person could be just as good, if not better than the Olympic competitor, the status of the Olympics holds a much higher level acceptance. The term/title "World Champion" has been freely tossed around by many organizations and individuals, but you have never seen anyone openly state "Olympic Champion" if they weren't actually an Olympian.

If you're interested in the actual martial art style of TKD then things tend to get complicated.

I don't see anything complicated about it. Different folks opted to start their own versions of TKD and set up their own resources. Instead of sending the money to Korea, they wished to keep it within their own sphere of control. To me that's simple and that aspect keeps growing. The debate actually comes down to........which is more preferable to the individual - a piece of paper from Korea or one from a home grown entity? Complications ensue when politics become the norm and folks get swept under the rug. Just reviewing some of the other threads here regarding the USAT or Kukkiwon should offer validation on this position.

Apathy about their supposed "authority" will see to it that there's always another option.

There's always "another option", not because of apathy, but because of greed. It's the "I want a piece of the pie also" mentality that fosters the first steps to apathy. So many organizations offering a piece of paper that may or may not be recognized. People in general just give up with all the politics, back stabbing and general BS that is associated within the world of TKD, regardless of what level they may have accomplished in their training.

 

[chrispillertkd]

As I stated prior, they have control of TKD at the "highest" level and that is for now the Olympic venue. Haven't the slightest idea of how many TKD organizations there are out there, but I'll wager a guess of at least 20. None of them have any real international implications with regards to TKD at the so-called elite level,

Can't say I agree. Or that this is accurate. YMMV given your personal experiences, of course.

OK, your opinion and your entitled to it, but just for discussion sake, if you feel that the Olympic TKD venue is not the "highest" level, then just what would you consider to be the it? Now since one aspect of your rebuttal stems from the other, by you not agreeing, it automatically gives license to being not accurate.

My comment was in regards to your assertion that other TKD orgs "have any real implications with regards to TKD at the so-called elite level." This is simply inaccurate. They might not have implications for hogu fighting, but to say there isn't elite level competition outside the WTF is not accurate. The Poles, the Czecks, the North Koreans, the Argentinians all produce amazing elite level Taekwon-Doin.

I know several world level Taekwon-Do competitors in the ITF

World level in what sense.

In the sense that they have attended WC's consisting of hundred of players from dozens of countries and walked away with gold medlas in sparring which, at that level, is as full contact as WTF sparring and, IMHO, harder since you're dealing with a wider variety of techniques.

If you don't think the Olympics are the pinnacle for TKD, how can an ITF (3 different segments) be considered world level competitor, except within their own realm of the ITF.

This same question can be levelled at WTF competitors. How can the WTF be considered world level competition except within its own realm? It might be a bigger single organization (and it would be even if you considered all 3 ITF's as one), but so what? On balance the majority of Taekwon-Doin in the world don't compete within the WTF confines, I'd warrant.

Now if you are seriously comparing an ITF competitor to an Olympic competitor, I feel your comparing apples to oranges,

And yet your statement about the WTF controlling "Taekwondo" can result in nothing else since you make no distinction about Taekwondo. 1) It simply doesn't control TKD, 2) there are elite level Taekwon-Doin outside the WTF, whether you know about them on a first hand basis or not. If you want to say the WTF is on the verge of taking over Olympic sparring that's one thing. But that's not what you said.

even though that ITF person could be just as good, if not better than the Olympic competitor, the status of the Olympics holds a much higher level acceptance. The term/title "World Champion" has been freely tossed around by many organizations and individuals, but you have never seen anyone openly state "Olympic Champion" if they weren't actually an Olympian.

And yet this has nothing to do with who "controls Taekwondo."

"If you're interested in the actual martial art style of TKD then things tend to get complicated."

I don't see anything complicated about it. Different folks opted to start their own versions of TKD and set up their own resources. Instead of sending the money to Korea, they wished to keep it within their own sphere of control. To me that's simple and that aspect keeps growing. The debate actually comes down to........which is more preferable to the individual - a piece of paper from Korea or one from a home grown entity? Complications ensue when politics become the norm and folks get swept under the rug. Just reviewing some of the other threads here regarding the USAT or Kukkiwon should offer validation on this position.

What complicates it is the fact that the WTF only regulates competitions. They do not (currently) issue rank, set curricula, or do anything else associated with an actual martial art. If you think "controlling TKD" consists in running high level sparring matches (and maybe considering issuing dan ranks again ... one day) you're welcome to that opinion. It will, I dare say, not effect the majority of people who train in Taekwon-Do.

Apathy about their supposed "authority" will see to it that there's always another option.

There's always "another option", not because of apathy, but because of greed. It's the "I want a piece of the pie also" mentality that fosters the first steps to apathy. So many organizations offering a piece of paper that may or may not be recognized. People in general just give up with all the politics, back stabbing and general BS that is associated within the world of TKD, regardless of what level they may have accomplished in their training.

That is only your opinion. Simply because you think everyone who has another TKD organization is greedy doesn't make it so. Some could, oddly enough, think they are doing the right thing by teaching Taekwon-Do the way they believe it should be taught.

There are people who will be motivated by making a profit (horrors!), who will engage in political bickering, etc. in any human endeavor because of human nature. But you'd have to do a fair bit of demonstration to make your assertion anything but an assertion in any specific case.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Disco]

This has turned into a three legged race and is going in a circle. I offer a statement with directives included and your rebuttal contains the same aspects I put forth, but with different wording. We have diverging mindsets and I'll leave it at that.......:asian: