kakkattekoi
Orange Belt
Came across this video just now, I felt that the chi sau shown here (the first few shot) seems different from the WSL lineage today
WSL wing chun
- Thread starter kakkattekoi
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OP
OP
kakkattekoi
Orange Belt
Do you train both? In our VT we roll at both ranges. I tend to favor "short bridge". One of my instructors always encourages me to spend more time at the "long bridge" range.
OP
OP
kakkattekoi
Orange Belt
tried both, but personally prefer with long bridge combined with foot work
What is long bridge range? Do you mean more wrist than elbow?
I'm not totally sure what you mean since either way we make contact at the wrists, but that sounds about right. "Long Bridge" in this context would mean with the arms more extended, using footwork to close as you attack, while "Short Bridge" would be rolling closer to your partner with the arms bent more sharply so that you can more easily hit directly without advancing footwork, or with just a very short yap bo step. The clips I've seen of WSL VT chi-sau seem to favor this range. IMO both ranges can be used to train valuable attributes.
OP
OP
kakkattekoi
Orange Belt
May I know which lineage you are from? As you mentioned almost all the clips n trainers I came across are using short bridge only
Sure. My foundation was with Leung Ting in the 1980s. I now train with the NVTO ...and some with DTE/MMA.
Here's literally the first clip that popped up on Youtube with a couple of guys from the same lineage, Emin Boztepe and Michael Casey. In this clip they start at what I'd call "long-bridge" and then use footwork to close as Emin moves in to beat on Michael at medium to short-bridge range, then they reset and repeat. The couple of times I worked with Emin way back, it wasn't really chi-sau. More like being a punching bag! Thank god he was holding back.
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OP
OP
kakkattekoi
Orange Belt
Sure. My foundation was with Leung Ting in the 1980s. I now train with the NVTO ...and some with DTE/MMA.
Here's literally the first clip that popped up on Youtube with a couple of guys from the same lineage, Emin Boztepe and Michael Casey. In this clip they start at what I'd call "long-bridge" and then use footwork to close as Emin moves in to beat on Michael at medium to short-bridge range, then they reset and repeat. The couple of times I worked with Emin way back, it wasn't really chi-sau. More like being a punching bag! Thank god he was holding back.
Awesome video!
Not often to see long bridge
You don't train a fixed elbow position?
wckf92
Master of Arts
Question for the WSL'ers out there...
Of all the people WSL taught, who among them (in your opinion) were taught the complete WSL curriculum and are representing the WSL method to the best of their ability?
And are any of them teaching in the US?
*I'm asking this because from reading posts/threads/responses over the years, it seems some WSL folks have opinions on instructors / Sifu's inside their own lineage as having been taught via seminars or only via occasional contact with WSL...
Thanks.
Of all the people WSL taught, who among them (in your opinion) were taught the complete WSL curriculum and are representing the WSL method to the best of their ability?
And are any of them teaching in the US?
*I'm asking this because from reading posts/threads/responses over the years, it seems some WSL folks have opinions on instructors / Sifu's inside their own lineage as having been taught via seminars or only via occasional contact with WSL...
Thanks.
Danny T
Senior Master
Yes, but only when drilling for that particular position.
Then we drill for a different position. In my training we allow the elbow to be used at the distance and/or height needed and just a single particular point in space in relation to my centerline. The immobile elbow is not a fixed position for us.
Fixed elbow? You mean elbow angle? The "ideal" angle in training is said to be about 120-135 degrees (that is if you carry a protractor
). But in actual application, there can be no fixed position. In our system, bong is a bent spring. It's bent or bowed inwards by our opponent's oncoming force, then springs back out when released. Consequently the amount of bend or flex in the bong is ever changing and adjusting ....like a cars springs as you drive on a bumpy road.Now we do not totally reject the well known concept of but doan jarn or "immovable elbow", it just doesn't apply here ...at least in our lineage. The "springy" nature of bong, tan, etc. is one of the defining attributes of our lineage and one of the reasons my old sifu actually preferred to consider his branch as a distinct system apart from other WC/VT branches.
I believe Gary Lam is one. I trained with him in Southern Calif before I moved on to JKD. I'm pretty sure WSL taught him everything.
Here is one approach to maintaining an "immovable elbow" ...in this case using tan-sau. One we do not use in our branch of Yip Man Ving Tsun. In the clip below notice how the student in the red shirt receives the oncoming punch on the outside of his tan sau and then deflects it with a turn without changing the angle of his tan or the position of his elbow in relation to his own body and centerline.
Immovable elbow in somebody else's WC:
In our VT, coming from the WT branch, we would not use our turning force with a fixed elbow to deflect the punch as shown. Instead our tan would stick and receive the punch's pressure, compressing and transferring the force into our body triggering a stance turn and lateral weight shift. In other words, the body yields by simultaneously both rotating and shifting laterally under the pressure of the punch while the tan-sau continues to track our opponent's center. For this to happen, the elbow stays in the same position in space but shifts with regard to our own turning body, from being near centerline (as in the saam pai fut movements of SNT) to the the laterally aligned elbow position of the gow-cha tan-sau or "crossed tan-sau" as performed at the beginning of SNT.
The result of this is that rather turning with our own force and pressing our opponent's punch to the side as in the video, we compress and ride the force back , using it to make our turn and evade it "like a bullfighter" with our tan, bong, etc. continually tracking our opponent's center ...which may involve elbow adjustments. Actually, once my sifu said, that it would be best to imagine that there is no elbow (that is if seen as a hinge between two rigid bones). Rather imagine the whole arm as a single springy piece of flexible rattan (like the slender end of a fly-fishing rod) flexing, extending, and then snapping forward according to the pressure it encounters as you seek to strike your opponent. By extention, the same applies to our body, to our stances and steps. This is our understanding of loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung.
1. How this rattan-like "springy" energy applies to bong-sau in LT WT and why the concept of a fixed elbow is moot in this situation (1910-19:50):
2. Turning with tan-da showing how the elbow moves from center to side relative to the body so that the tan tracks the opponent's center (below 22:10-22:30):
Now Guy. I do not know if my verbal explanation of this is clear. But it was time consuming to write and I've even looked up and included some video clips, so if you need more clarification, you may have to find someone who can show you what I'm talking about in person!
Immovable elbow in somebody else's WC:
In our VT, coming from the WT branch, we would not use our turning force with a fixed elbow to deflect the punch as shown. Instead our tan would stick and receive the punch's pressure, compressing and transferring the force into our body triggering a stance turn and lateral weight shift. In other words, the body yields by simultaneously both rotating and shifting laterally under the pressure of the punch while the tan-sau continues to track our opponent's center. For this to happen, the elbow stays in the same position in space but shifts with regard to our own turning body, from being near centerline (as in the saam pai fut movements of SNT) to the the laterally aligned elbow position of the gow-cha tan-sau or "crossed tan-sau" as performed at the beginning of SNT.
The result of this is that rather turning with our own force and pressing our opponent's punch to the side as in the video, we compress and ride the force back , using it to make our turn and evade it "like a bullfighter" with our tan, bong, etc. continually tracking our opponent's center ...which may involve elbow adjustments. Actually, once my sifu said, that it would be best to imagine that there is no elbow (that is if seen as a hinge between two rigid bones). Rather imagine the whole arm as a single springy piece of flexible rattan (like the slender end of a fly-fishing rod) flexing, extending, and then snapping forward according to the pressure it encounters as you seek to strike your opponent. By extention, the same applies to our body, to our stances and steps. This is our understanding of loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung.
1. How this rattan-like "springy" energy applies to bong-sau in LT WT and why the concept of a fixed elbow is moot in this situation (1910-19:50):
2. Turning with tan-da showing how the elbow moves from center to side relative to the body so that the tan tracks the opponent's center (below 22:10-22:30):
Now Guy. I do not know if my verbal explanation of this is clear. But it was time consuming to write and I've even looked up and included some video clips, so if you need more clarification, you may have to find someone who can show you what I'm talking about in person!
wckf92
Master of Arts
Cool, thanks!
Vajramusti
Master Black Belt
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Sure. My foundation was with Leung Ting in the 1980s. I now train with the NVTO ...and some with DTE/MMA.
Here's literally the first clip that popped up on Youtube with a couple of guys from the same lineage, Emin Boztepe and Michael Casey. In this clip they start at what I'd call "long-bridge" and then use footwork to close as Emin moves in to beat on Michael at medium to short-bridge range, then they reset and repeat. The couple of times I worked with Emin way back, it wasn't really chi-sau. More like being a punching bag! Thank god he was holding back.
Definitions can vary. A good wing chun punch could be an example of short bridge. Fak sao in the biu jee form
can be labeled as more of a long bridge. Labels can be arbitrary... depending on context
Fixed elbow? You mean elbow angle? The "ideal" angle in training is said to be about 120-135 degrees (that is if you carry a protractor
I don't mean elbow angle. I mean the basic elbow position trained in the forms.
I don't mean immovable elbow, just referring to the elbow distance we train at, which in turn determines how we fight. I don't personally train a second elbow position further out from my body.
Here is one approach to maintaining an "immovable elbow" ...in this case using tan-sau. One we do not use in our branch of Yip Man Ving Tsun. In the clip below notice how the student in the red shirt receives the oncoming punch on the outside of his tan sau and then deflects it with a turn without changing the angle of his tan or the position of his elbow in relation to his own body and centerline.
Immovable elbow in somebody else's WC:
In our VT, coming from the WT branch, we would not use our turning force with a fixed elbow to deflect the punch as shown. Instead our tan would stick and receive the punch's pressure, compressing and transferring the force into our body triggering a stance turn and lateral weight shift. In other words, the body yields by simultaneously both rotating and shifting laterally under the pressure of the punch while the tan-sau continues to track our opponent's center. For this to happen, the elbow stays in the same position in space but shifts with regard to our own turning body, from being near centerline (as in the saam pai fut movements of SNT) to the the laterally aligned elbow position of the gow-cha tan-sau or "crossed tan-sau" as performed at the beginning of SNT.
The result of this is that rather turning with our own force and pressing our opponent's punch to the side as in the video, we compress and ride the force back , using it to make our turn and evade it "like a bullfighter" with our tan, bong, etc. continually tracking our opponent's center ...which may involve elbow adjustments. Actually, once my sifu said, that it would be best to imagine that there is no elbow (that is if seen as a hinge between two rigid bones). Rather imagine the whole arm as a single springy piece of flexible rattan (like the slender end of a fly-fishing rod) flexing, extending, and then snapping forward according to the pressure it encounters as you seek to strike your opponent. By extention, the same applies to our body, to our stances and steps. This is our understanding of loi lau hoi sung, lat sau jik chung.
1. How this rattan-like "springy" energy applies to bong-sau in LT WT and why the concept of a fixed elbow is moot in this situation (1910-19:50):
2. Turning with tan-da showing how the elbow moves from center to side relative to the body so that the tan tracks the opponent's center (below 22:10-22:30):
Now Guy. I do not know if my verbal explanation of this is clear. But it was time consuming to write and I've even looked up and included some video clips, so if you need more clarification, you may have to find someone who can show you what I'm talking about in person!
Don't worry, your verbal explanation in terms of how your wing chun works is very clear. Thanks for making the effort.
