Would you rather a knife or baton?

Tigerwarrior

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 8, 2023
Messages
271
Reaction score
156
If both are legal in your area and you have to chose one which would you pick and why? Me personally I carry a baton but with warmer weather coming it can be a chore sometimes to conceal one. In my area batons are legal and knives too but knives can't be carried just for the purpose of using as a weapon. So my push dagger stays at home but I can carry tactical folders and non mainly weapon fixed blades concealed. I'm considering carrying a knife again but want to weigh the pros and cons. I'm trained In both baton and knife but I am more skilled with a baton. I'm still more than enough skilled to use a knife though.
 

Holmejr

Brown Belt
Joined
Dec 23, 2017
Messages
440
Reaction score
261
If I had to choose between the two, Id choose the baton (arnis). For one, I practice more with the baton (60/40), but that is not really the point. The baton, depending on the users skill level and baton weight has real stopping power without the bloodshed. Knifes are very personal and takes more intent to defend with. Breaking a bone with the arnis is not the same as slashing or stabbing someone. Unfortunately, carrying a baton with you in public is not realistic, so that makes the knife the default carry weapon. Lord forbid that you actually have to use it.
 

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
15,345
Reaction score
3,966
Location
Michigan
I don't carry any weapons. From time to time, I have a cheap folding knife in my pocket when I'm doing yard work. I don't know why I would carry a weapon. First, I'd have to be qualified to use it, and with the exception of a pistol, I'm not. Second, I doubt it's legal here. Third, I'm over 60, and the time for me to be involved in physical altercations is long gone. I was stabbed with a bayonet once in the Marine Corps, but I was an MP and that kind of thing happened then. It's amazing, but people don't try to stab or shoot me anymore. Weird.
 
OP
T

Tigerwarrior

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 8, 2023
Messages
271
Reaction score
156
I don't carry any weapons. From time to time, I have a cheap folding knife in my pocket when I'm doing yard work. I don't know why I would carry a weapon. First, I'd have to be qualified to use it, and with the exception of a pistol, I'm not. Second, I doubt it's legal here. Third, I'm over 60, and the time for me to be involved in physical altercations is long gone. I was stabbed with a bayonet once in the Marine Corps, but I was an MP and that kind of thing happened then. It's amazing, but people don't try to stab or shoot me anymore. Weird.
Idk why I carry. Yeah crime has gotten bad but my area is ok. Definitely safer than any other big city I know. Still crime but way more assaults and strong arms than shootouts or stabbings. I think I have ptsd from my youth. I was involved in a couple really bad fights that turned really nasty. After those fights I've never been the same. Getting kicked in the head while on the ground by steel toe boots by older attackers should change someone. And for the record I didn't even want to fight, they were looking for a guy who wronged them in the area but had no description and thought I looked like trouble so it was a random attack on me a 14yr old minding my own business. That's definitely why I carry now come to think of it. I dont want to go through that again. Sorry for the life story biography but your post made me think, why do I carry an expandable steel pipe with me everytime I leave the house. Now It makes sense to me. But in all honesty I live in a pretty safe area. I grew up in a way rougher area than I live at now.
 
OP
T

Tigerwarrior

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 8, 2023
Messages
271
Reaction score
156
I carry a knife. Most often these days, a Benchmade Infidel. But I also carry a gun, most often a Glock 19.
I like glocks. I've owned 2 in the past. One was a glock 36 and the other was a glock 32 in 357 sig. Times got tough and I needed the money so I had to get rid of them. Hopefully when I get my new job I can save up and get something nice for home defense. I'm thinking either a Springfield xdm because I like the 1911 type grip ergonomics and it holds more rounds than a standard 1911. I also saw a nice beretta 96 in 40 cal used for only $300 if I had the money I would of got it on the spot. But yeah in the near future I'll probably get a new pistol for home defense.
 
OP
T

Tigerwarrior

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 8, 2023
Messages
271
Reaction score
156
If I had to choose between the two, Id choose the baton (arnis). For one, I practice more with the baton (60/40), but that is not really the point. The baton, depending on the users skill level and baton weight has real stopping power without the bloodshed. Knifes are very personal and takes more intent to defend with. Breaking a bone with the arnis is not the same as slashing or stabbing someone. Unfortunately, carrying a baton with you in public is not realistic, so that makes the knife the default carry weapon. Lord forbid that you actually have to use it.
I recently got one of those smith and Wesson pocket batons. It's advertised as a 12 inch baton, but honestly it's probably 12 inches total including the handle. It's nice but in some shorts without a belt It's a little heavy. Probably gonna get more cargo shorts and just get a bigger expandable baton. 12 inches baton isn't enough range for my liking. I practice kali with 26 in rattan sticks so I'm more comfortable with something around that length.
 

Holmejr

Brown Belt
Joined
Dec 23, 2017
Messages
440
Reaction score
261
I recently got one of those smith and Wesson pocket batons. It's advertised as a 12 inch baton, but honestly it's probably 12 inches total including the handle. It's nice but in some shorts without a belt It's a little heavy. Probably gonna get more cargo shorts and just get a bigger expandable baton. 12 inches baton isn't enough range for my liking. I practice kali with 26 in rattan sticks so I'm more comfortable with something around that length.
Unfortunately, weighted batons such as that are illegal in California and carrys with it a misdemeanor or a felony charge. In CA, anything can that can be swung with the intent of a baton, becomes a baton. Weve practiced with telescoping batons in class and I think theyre an excellent whackinn weapon.
 

Argus

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
774
Reaction score
300
Location
Japan
Were legality not an issue, a baton hands down. Especially if we are talking folders for knives.
As anything more than an absolute last ditch lethal force option, folding knives really, really, really suck. I don't care how tacticool or fast opening your folding knife is. There are serious problems with it. First and foremost is access. If you keep it in a jeans pocket, forget about it. You will not be able to get it out when you need it under stress. Oh, yes, I know you can stand there and practice reaching into your pocket and flicking out your knife, but the moment even a half serious training partner, let alone an attacker comes at you under stress, you will:
1. Not be able to locate your pocket, because your legs are moving
2. Not be able to get your hand or finger into your front pocket even if you locate it, because it closes up when you crouch down
Then, on the chance you are quite lucky and/or become quite skilled *with a particular pair of jeans* (everything changes when you put on a different pair with a slightly different cut or different pockets), you will inevitably fumble, grabbing the knife the wrong way, failing to open the blade, etc. etc. etc.
And even if you train like mad to do all of those things at once, and achieve a somewhat reasonable success rate deploying your weapon, you're still a whopping four steps behind your opponent. Hand in, Knife out, Open Knife, Counter Attack -- by which time he has made 4-5 thrusts or cuts at you. Good luck.
How do I know all of this? I trained like mad to make it work, and my solid conclusion is that, while I'm sure someone in the world out there can make it work for them successfully (one of my Kali teachers could), it's not at all a reliable option for the average martial artist -- not even the average dedicated martial artist.
Add to this two more factors:
1. Most folding knives with liner locks are apt to collapse or fold in on your hand, if not outright break, if you stab anything with significant resistance.
2. Many lack a grip that would keep your hand from riding up on the blade when thrusting.
3. Knives, while potentially quite lethal, really lack immediate stopping power -- especially knives of typical EDC length (say, 2-3"). Thick clothing makes slashes ineffective, and most people who get into a knife fight are stabbed multiple times while continuing to fight before they even realize that they've got several holes in them and that they're leaking everywhere.
If you're carrying a bowie knife around then, okay, we can have a different discussion entirely. But I don't think that's what most people are talking about.
Folding knives are utilitarian tools. Leave it at that, and please don't try to make them into tacticool weapons. This is also how we managed to get them banned everywhere. As much as that's unfair, well, what should we expect when you make them look like something a spec ops agent would use? Except yeah, spec ops wouldn't use folding knives, because they're not in any way suited to being used as a weapon for the reasons above.

Okay, batons? A lot better. Yes, they can also be lacking in stopping power, but you've got more reach, and more stopping power. You can break bones, and easily break an attacker's weapon hand.
These are all really limited to you being attacked by somebody with a knife or melee weapon though, which is a somewhat rare occurrence. I'd be more worried about being confronted with a fire-arm. Neither a knife nor baton will help you there.
 

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
15,345
Reaction score
3,966
Location
Michigan
Idk why I carry. Yeah crime has gotten bad but my area is ok. Definitely safer than any other big city I know. Still crime but way more assaults and strong arms than shootouts or stabbings. I think I have ptsd from my youth. I was involved in a couple really bad fights that turned really nasty. After those fights I've never been the same. Getting kicked in the head while on the ground by steel toe boots by older attackers should change someone. And for the record I didn't even want to fight, they were looking for a guy who wronged them in the area but had no description and thought I looked like trouble so it was a random attack on me a 14yr old minding my own business. That's definitely why I carry now come to think of it. I dont want to go through that again. Sorry for the life story biography but your post made me think, why do I carry an expandable steel pipe with me everytime I leave the house. Now It makes sense to me. But in all honesty I live in a pretty safe area. I grew up in a way rougher area than I live at now.
I'm sorry to hear about your trauma. I have recurring nightmares and certain requirements due to my time in the military, so I get it.

You sound pretty introspective and aware of yourself, and I mean no insult, but I'd be a bit concerned about how a person exposed to violence in their past might respond with a weapon given a provocation that didn't rise to the level of requiring self-defense with deadly force (and a baton is most definitely capable of ending a life).

I am not against guns, knives, batons, or carry. If I felt the need to carry a firearm, I'd get my permit and do so. I'm also fully trained, have owned firearms all my life, and know how to carry safely and the laws regarding use of deadly force. But I still chose not to do so personally. I just don't have a good use case for myself, and frankly, I am too dang lazy to go heeled everywhere. I'd leave it at home most of the time, and that's no different than the .38 I keep in my nightstand. I'm frankly a bit more worried about the many armed yahoos wandering around seemingly itching for the chance to shoot someone than I am about actual attackers. Reading the news lately, it seems you can get shot by knocking on the wrong door, bouncing a ball into someone's yard, pulling into the wrong driveway, etc. I don't need to be adding to that.
 
OP
T

Tigerwarrior

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 8, 2023
Messages
271
Reaction score
156
I'm sorry to hear about your trauma. I have recurring nightmares and certain requirements due to my time in the military, so I get it.

You sound pretty introspective and aware of yourself, and I mean no insult, but I'd be a bit concerned about how a person exposed to violence in their past might respond with a weapon given a provocation that didn't rise to the level of requiring self-defense with deadly force (and a baton is most definitely capable of ending a life).

I am not against guns, knives, batons, or carry. If I felt the need to carry a firearm, I'd get my permit and do so. I'm also fully trained, have owned firearms all my life, and know how to carry safely and the laws regarding use of deadly force. But I still chose not to do so personally. I just don't have a good use case for myself, and frankly, I am too dang lazy to go heeled everywhere. I'd leave it at home most of the time, and that's no different than the .38 I keep in my nightstand. I'm frankly a bit more worried about the many armed yahoos wandering around seemingly itching for the chance to shoot someone than I am about actual attackers. Reading the news lately, it seems you can get shot by knocking on the wrong door, bouncing a ball into someone's yard, pulling into the wrong driveway, etc. I don't need to be adding to that.
Yeah I get what you're saying and I agree. Here in maine anyone who isn't a felon and is over 21 can carry a pistol concealed, no training or anything required. I don't agree with that law at all. At least make them take a firearms safety class. Me personally I haven't been in a street fight in almost 10 years. The last time one almost occurred I talked the guy down with verbal judo, I was carrying at the time but tried to de escalate and the de escalation worked. I'm currently training in kung fu san soo and once I learn the numpi lessons I'll probably not feel the need to carry anymore. I hope I never have to use my baton.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,851
Location
San Francisco
I'm sorry to hear about your trauma. I have recurring nightmares and certain requirements due to my time in the military, so I get it.

You sound pretty introspective and aware of yourself, and I mean no insult, but I'd be a bit concerned about how a person exposed to violence in their past might respond with a weapon given a provocation that didn't rise to the level of requiring self-defense with deadly force (and a baton is most definitely capable of ending a life).

I am not against guns, knives, batons, or carry. If I felt the need to carry a firearm, I'd get my permit and do so. I'm also fully trained, have owned firearms all my life, and know how to carry safely and the laws regarding use of deadly force. But I still chose not to do so personally. I just don't have a good use case for myself, and frankly, I am too dang lazy to go heeled everywhere. I'd leave it at home most of the time, and that's no different than the .38 I keep in my nightstand. I'm frankly a bit more worried about the many armed yahoos wandering around seemingly itching for the chance to shoot someone than I am about actual attackers. Reading the news lately, it seems you can get shot by knocking on the wrong door, bouncing a ball into someone's yard, pulling into the wrong driveway, etc. I don't need to be adding to that.
This past Saturday morning we had a persistent knock on the front door at 6:00 am. My son was already up, I was not. I told him to dont answer it while I threw on some clothes and came down. I opened the door to find a surprised fellow, seems he came to the wrong house looking for his buddy to go fishing that day. His car was parked on the street with a boat behind it. I didnt shoot him. But those news stories ran through my head.
 

Bill Mattocks

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Feb 8, 2009
Messages
15,345
Reaction score
3,966
Location
Michigan
This past Saturday morning we had a persistent knock on the front door at 6:00 am. My son was already up, I was not. I told him to dont answer it while I threw on some clothes and came down. I opened the door to find a surprised fellow, seems he came to the wrong house looking for his buddy to go fishing that day. His car was parked on the street with a boat behind it. I didnt shoot him. But those news stories ran through my head.
Yet another news story, some kids playing hide and seek in a guy's yard. Guy came out with a gun, kids ran away, he allegedly shot a young girl in the back of the head as she ran. Things are getting crazy. People reacting with fear and anger, which doesn't mix well with guns. I don't even know what to say anymore. I've never even taken my guns out to show anyone, and unless someone comes through my front door, they'll never see them.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
15,196
Reaction score
4,851
Location
San Francisco
When I was a young kid I was a frequent sleepwalker. One night I got up, went out the front door and walked over to the neighbors house and started ringing their doorbell. Glad they were friendly people.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,064
Reaction score
7,732
Yet another news story, some kids playing hide and seek in a guy's yard. Guy came out with a gun, kids ran away, he allegedly shot a young girl in the back of the head as she ran. Things are getting crazy. People reacting with fear and anger, which doesn't mix well with guns. I don't even know what to say anymore. I've never even taken my guns out to show anyone, and unless someone comes through my front door, they'll never see them.

That seems to be the rhetoric though. If they are on my property. I can go from zero to one hundred and be justified in doing that.
 

Argus

2nd Black Belt
Joined
Jul 16, 2012
Messages
774
Reaction score
300
Location
Japan
That seems to be the rhetoric though. If they are on my property. I can go from zero to one hundred and be justified in doing that.
Um, no. Do you seriously think you'd be justified in shooting the mail-man, Jehova's witness, or the guy looking for his friend to go fishing?
 
OP
T

Tigerwarrior

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 8, 2023
Messages
271
Reaction score
156
Baton
Um, no. Do you seriously think you'd be justified in shooting the mail-man, Jehova's witness, or the guy looking for his friend to go fishing?
I think he meant that that's the attitude of society in America nowadays, shoot first ask questions later. It's like the wild west out there for real in a lot of major cities.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
23,064
Reaction score
7,732
Um, no. Do you seriously think you'd be justified in shooting the mail-man, Jehova's witness, or the guy looking for his friend to go fishing?
Look. I come from a completely different country. I don't have even half this merciless blood thirsty nature towards my fellow man.

So I not only don't justify shooting every tom dick and Harry that steps on my lawn. I don't even justify shooting your average criminal.

I don't do stand your ground.

I do reasonable, legal and proportionate force.

I find this sort of thing just super cringe.
 
Last edited:

Dirty Dog

MT Senior Moderator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2009
Messages
22,671
Reaction score
8,311
Location
Pueblo West, CO
ATTENTION ALL USERS:

As I am sure you all know, political debate is not allowed.
If you want to discuss WHAT happens, that's fine. If you want to discuss whether it SHOULD happen, take it elsewhere. Like our sister site US Message Board Political Discussion Forum. But continuing this here will get the thread locked, and quite possible some penalty points being awarded.
Yes, this means you!

Mark A. Cochran
@Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator
 
OP
T

Tigerwarrior

Blue Belt
Joined
Jan 8, 2023
Messages
271
Reaction score
156
ATTENTION ALL USERS:

As I am sure you all know, political debate is not allowed.
If you want to discuss WHAT happens, that's fine. If you want to discuss whether it SHOULD happen, take it elsewhere. Like our sister site US Message Board Political Discussion Forum. But continuing this here will get the thread locked, and quite possible some penalty points being awarded.
Yes, this means you!

Mark A. Cochran
@Dirty Dog
MartialTalk Senior Moderator
Sorry if I crossed the line.
 

Latest Discussions

Top