World Jiu-Jitsu Champion Killed

isshinryuronin

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 28, 2019
Messages
1,375
Reaction score
1,368
Location
Las Vegas
There have been more times that I've been saved by something other than my own design.
Imagine if we had to depend exclusively on our skills and brains to survive. Few of us would still be around. While helpful, those qualities need reinforcements like luck, grace or fate from time to time. If someone is in charge of that, I'd like to buy him dinner.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,648
Reaction score
6,111
Location
Covington, WA
I've had a gun pulled on me as well and I didn't get shot because I took the correct actions that day with the right person. Just because people have a gun doesn't mean that you don't have any influence on their decision to shoot you. People will sometimes let their mouth get them in more trouble then they would have been had they said nothing. If my actions can influence the violence that I receive then it can also influence the violence that I don't get. The guy waving the bottle influenced Lo's action. Lo have done the same action had the guy not waved the bottle around?
Sorry. I wasnt clear. I dont disagree with a lot of what youre saying. I just think it mostly relies on someone leaning toward not shooting you. If someone is going to shoot you , you really dont have any influence. Theyre just going to do it.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,648
Reaction score
6,111
Location
Covington, WA
Not the same situation as Lo. Two different things. Getting shot out of the blue is not the same as the having a confrontation, taking the guy down, then getting shot by the guy that you just took down. Sometimes people are just in the right place for bad things. There's not much that can be done other than not showing up at the location. At that point things turn into the grace of God, gut feelings and luck.

There have been more times that I've been saved by something other than my own design.
Obviously not the same. No two situations are the same. Which is why Ive said several times that this entire thread is speculative.

I agree almost everything you just said. Only thing we disagree on is speculating about whether Lo could have prevented the situation.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
4,495
Imagine if we had to depend exclusively on our skills and brains to survive. Few of us would still be around. While helpful, those qualities need reinforcements like luck, grace or fate from time to time. If someone is in charge of that, I'd like to buy him dinner.
I'm with you on that. Drinks on me lol.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
4,495
Sorry. I wasnt clear. I dont disagree with a lot of what youre saying. I just think it mostly relies on someone leaning toward not shooting you. If someone is going to shoot you , you really dont have any influence. Theyre just going to do it.
The influence comes before they shoot you. once they make up there mind then there's nothing that can be done. In Lo's situation there were a lot of things that happened prior to the shooting that didn't involve a gun. I'm not sure what happened when the gun came into the picture. I don't know if there were opportunities " Change Fate" once the gun was pulled out. That's still unknown I think.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
4,495
Obviously not the same. No two situations are the same. Which is why Ive said several times that this entire thread is speculative.

I agree almost everything you just said. Only thing we disagree on is speculating about whether Lo could have prevented the situation.
Yeah. Either not take him down or put him to sleep and let someone else wake the guy up. There where other people there who didn't get shot. They also didn't take the guy down. Alot went on before the shooting. Unlike someone walking up and shooting people for no reason like a school shooting or the example of the 4 police officers.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,648
Reaction score
6,111
Location
Covington, WA
Yeah. Either not take him down or put him to sleep and let someone else wake the guy up. There where other people there who didn't get shot. They also didn't take the guy down. Alot went on before the shooting. Unlike someone walking up and shooting people for no reason like a school shooting or the example of the 4 police officers.
You ever been in a fight? I mean a real fight.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,648
Reaction score
6,111
Location
Covington, WA
Yes. I've been in real fights. I've said this many times before.
Yeah. I thought I recalled that. Why didnt you influence the situation to avoid the fight?

Im presuming you either killed the guys or beat them unconscious based on your rationale. Right? Or did your pull zip ties out of your pocket to subdue the guy? Based on your posts here, I would find it hard to believe otherwise.

Personally, Ive been in a lot of fights and also a few not quite fights that got physical. In every one of them, there was a point where I judged the situation over and disengaged because to keep going would no longer be self defense.

In my opinion.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,648
Reaction score
6,111
Location
Covington, WA
With the benefit of an actual keyboard (not a phone), I would like to share if I can why I believe some of the folks on this thread are entirely off base. It has nothing to do with general good advice or common sense.

It is entirely to do with two things. First, some folks here are victim blaming. A guy was shot and killed and a few of you are starting all of your posts with the underlying presumption that it's his fault he was shot. This is, I mean, it's pretty horrible. He should have done this... he could have done that.

Second, there is a presumption that in the same circumstances you would not have been shot. Not just that you would have handled the situation not just differently (which is a given), but better... you would have done something in the moment that would have kept you safe. That seems incredibly arrogant to me. A guy was shot senselessly at point blank range in the head.

Most of us have been in fights and not been shot.
Most of us have been in bar fights and not been shot.
Some of us have had guns pointed at us and not been shot.

I'm pretty sure all of you who say yes to those questions made some mistakes... didn't handle those situations exactly right. And yet here we are, safe and sound. Why is that?

Most of the time... almost every time... people aren't shot. They may have martial arts experience or not. They may be tough or not... big egos and small. Mistakes made or not made. I think there are many things you can do to help ensure you are safe in a fight. But I've not seen any empirical evidence that when someone's going to shoot someone, there's much you're going to be able to do about it.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
4,495
Yeah. I thought I recalled that. Why didnt you influence the situation to avoid the fight?
I did influence the situation. I wanted to get into the fight. I didn't like the dude and wanted to hit him. I didn't do any thing to de escalate it. I was willing to take things to that point. He did same in return. We got what we wanted.

But there were also times when I didn't be to be in a fight. So far I've been 100% successful with not making things worse. There have been times when I wanted to fight and someone talked their way out of it and I didn't fight them.

those days were in my early years when I was too eager to show my physical dominance. I change when I met my wife. I often tell her that she saved my life because I was heading in the wrong direction. There's a guy in the gym I want to punch because it "feels like he's testing me.:" like he's trying to see what he can get away with. Lately he seems that he's in my way when working out crowded me like standing behind me when I'm working on the bags waiting for me to bump into him so he can start some stuff. Yep I want to hit him now. But I'm not that same person even though I feel the same things I felt in my 20s. He's got one more time before I start manipulating his behavior.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
4,495
Personally, Ive been in a lot of fights and also a few not quite fights that got physical. In every one of them, there was a point where I judged the situation over and disengaged because to keep going would no longer be self defense.
Not every fight Ive been in was for self defense. Some were and some weren't
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,648
Reaction score
6,111
Location
Covington, WA
I did influence the situation. I wanted to get into the fight. I didn't like the dude and wanted to hit him. I didn't do any thing to de escalate it. I was willing to take things to that point. He did same in return. We got what we wanted.

But there were also times when I didn't be to be in a fight. So far I've been 100% successful with not making things worse. There have been times when I wanted to fight and someone talked their way out of it and I didn't fight them.

those days were in my early years when I was too eager to show my physical dominance. I change when I met my wife. I often tell her that she saved my life because I was heading in the wrong direction. There's a guy in the gym I want to punch because it "feels like he's testing me.:" like he's trying to see what he can get away with. Lately he seems that he's in my way when working out crowded me like standing behind me when I'm working on the bags waiting for me to bump into him so he can start some stuff. Yep I want to hit him now. But I'm not that same person even though I feel the same things I felt in my 20s. He's got one more time before I start manipulating his behavior.

I think when you guys start to get it, you pick a single sentence out of context and veer off in that direction. It's fine. I think you understand, whether you want to say it out loud or not .
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
4,495
I think when you guys start to get it, you pick a single sentence out of context and veer off in that direction. It's fine. I think you understand, whether you want to say it out loud or not .
Not sure what you are referring to.
 
OP
JowGaWolf

JowGaWolf

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 3, 2015
Messages
11,973
Reaction score
4,495
Something you and I don't have in common. Outside of sport, I've never hurt anyone for reasons other than self defense.
That's because we aren't the fans people and don't have similar personalities. But that's cool. People are supposed to be different.
 

drop bear

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
22,011
Reaction score
6,733
Correlation does not equal causation.

If you have not been shot. It was probably not due to your behaviour and a lot more to do with nobody wanted to shoot you.

The reasoning behind this is the very low percentage of people who do get shot. Regardless of their behaviour.

If you wish to pretend that your behaviour or lucky undies or whatever is protecting you from being shot. That's fine. Because the likelihood is nobody wants to shoot you anyway.

But you are not being very honest with yourself.
 
Top