Pokitren
White Belt
At a certain point in life comes the realization: let them go crazy as they want, I need to live my life
World Jiu-Jitsu Champion Killed
- Thread starter JowGaWolf
- Start date
I was thinking about that and reminding myself that next time I taught a class on taking someone down and controlling them in a street context that I should emphasize the importance of checking them for weapons. Maybe randomly give some students practice weapons to hide on their person that they can pull out if their partner doesn't check them properly.
But in this particular case, it's not 100% clear from the information available whether it would have made a difference if Lo had patted down the murderer before letting him up. We don't know if he had the gun on him at that point or if he went out and got the weapon from his car after being subdued. Also, apparently the suspect was an off-duty police officer. I don't even know what the protocol would be in the U.S. if I took down and disarmed a crazy-acting drunk and he turned out to be a cop and the gun was his service pistol. I definitely don't know what the best practice would be in Brazil, which apparently has a serious problem with police corruption.
You think wrong. There are plenty of people who wouldn't have turned a minor incident into a fight.
That is an excellent idea. There's a clip I recall seeing in which a man who clearly has some grappling skills is confronted in a parking garage. Our guy takes the person down and (if memory serves) has them in an arm lock. At which point the bad guy pulls a knife from under his shirt and begins stabbing the grappler.
My knowledge of the legal situation is Brazil matches yours quite precisely. However, I know the law on this matter here in Colorado. Partly because it's a really good idea to know the applicable laws if you're going to carry (it's one of the things you're tested on when you apply for a CCW permit) and partly because everyone in my family seems to be either a teacher, medical, or LEO. One of our sons and a son-in-law are local PD. Another in-law is FBI. The law here is unusual in there is no obfuscation. It's plain, simple, and to the point.
Note that it says "under the influence", not "intoxicated". A person is intoxicated if they have a BAC of 0.080 or higher. You are under the influence if there is any alcohol (or any other intoxicant) in your system.
Which works out great for my friends an family, because there's never any question of who will be the designated driver. It also means there is always at least one person in the group who isn't burdened by an abundance of beer-muscles.
So here, at least, the off-duty cop is 100% wrong. My cop-kids assure me that you would not be facing any legal issues if you took them down and disarmed them.
The story posted indicates that the BJJ fellow took down the other guy and had him restrained. In that situation, letting them up is a mistake, I think. You've got them controlled. Sit on them until someone (police, bouncers, club security, whoever) has them in hand.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
With due respect, I think you're the one who is wrong. There is a lot about this situation we don't know. We weren't there. Heck, we don't even know if it was a minor incident. You're inventing a story that fits your preconceived notions.
We do know a few things, though. He subdued the guy. He did it without hurting the guy. And in that moment, he believed the danger had passed and he let the guy go.
Now, I know that some of you think you'd be super vigilant and never relax like that, but I think that's highly speculative. Why do I believe that? Because we see it happen every day in America, even to well trained, self defense experts, regular people, athletes, couch potatoes, and even cops. On duty, off duty... doesn't matter. If someone wants to shoot you in the head, there's not much you're going to be able to do about it. And this is particularly true if you don't believe you are in danger.
So, as I've said to others, we can just agree to disagree. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I just simply think you guys are engaging in opportunistic victim blaming, when someone who is by all accounts a pretty nice guy was shot and killed senselessly. You think you'd do better, and it sounds like bunk to me. that's my opinion.
There have been several people already who have made it clear they would not have engaged. So your "100%" claim is wrong. Simple. Now you can proceed to argue that it's 99%. or 98%
Steve
Mostly Harmless
You have a different opinion than me, and that's okay. Your opinion is your belief. You're welcome to it. Doesn't bother me at all that you believe I'm wrong. I believe you're wrong.
I've indulged you probably more than wise, explaining my opinion and rationale for it. When you get like this, you seem to just be trying to start an argument. It's telling you responded to the first sentence only of my explanation. It's okay though. I get it. You're in a mood.
But there's a difference between explaining my opinion and proving I'm right or you're wrong. I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything to you. I frankly don't care one way or the other what you think. I've offered to agree to disagree, and yet you seem to want to argue. Why is that?
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Doesn't stop him shooting them.
You guys are all talking while you are calm and cool and rationalize this. Most of the time, it's the heat of the moment and people don't respond rationally. It's impossible to talk about this until you are put into the situation. A perfectly normal person can do crazy things if they are blinded with anger.
Thanks for that info. That said, there can be differences between what the law says and what the safe and practical things to do are when dealing with law enforcement. Nationwide, there is considerable variation in the professionalism and integrity of different police departments and also individuals within a given PD. I'm thinking that if someone calls 911 and says "Hey, I've got a drunk guy who was acting crazy, so I've pinned him down and taken a gun off of him, and guess what? It's one of your police officers. Can you send someone over to collect the guy and also his gun", that the response may vary widely according to a number of factors. (Not going to go into detail on what some of those factors might be, in an effort to steer clear of politics.)
@Buka Do you have any thoughts on the matter?
Steve
Mostly Harmless
Just a point of clarification. This took place in Sao Paulo, Brazil. Right?
Right. As I alluded to earlier, I have no idea what the best approach to the situation would be in Brazil considering the endemic police corruption there. I was just contemplating what the possibilities might be in the U.S., especially since DD clarified the official legal situation would be in his state.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I'll go back and read your earlier post.
Some people have reason to know how they'd respond.
OP
OP
Have you ever been in an aggressive confrontation with someone who wanted to do harm to you? If not then your statement is true. However, if you have been in one and you didn't act the same way then you can probably be safe to say that you wouldn't act the same way. You already have a good idea of how you would respond.
The confrontation that happened in Brazil sounds like it was just like any other confrontation a person would have to deal with from an aggressive person in a club. Based on the articles, the gun didn't come into play until one of them thought the confrontation was over. Up to that point things would have been common for a club environment. Hence the need for bouncers. Bouncers aren't on the scene because everyone plays nice. I would hope many people in this forum would understand where their limits are when it comes to fighting.
I couldn't answer any better than what you stated.....which I italicized.
"I'm thinking that if someone calls 911 and says "Hey, I've got a drunk guy who was acting crazy, so I've pinned him down and taken a gun off of him, and guess what? It's one of your police officers. Can you send someone over to collect the guy and also his gun", that the response may vary widely according to a number of factors."
The department here is odd because of it's location - it's completely isolated, there's no oversight. I couldn't even guess as to what might happen. Whatever the response, it would be unusual and strange.
Boston, which I'm closely familiar with, is different because it's a very old (and quite political) department. It might depend on who took the call and how much was caught on camera. I stress the word "might".
I know if it happened in my old department, the officer would be fired immediately, charged immediately, locked up immediately without bail, and never see the light of day again. I have no problem with that whatsoever.
Steve
Mostly Harmless
I think the nut of where we disagree is you think Lo was shot because of something he did or didn’t do. I think Lo was shot because the guy who shot him was going to shoot someone and it happened to be Lo.
There are situations where this isn’t the case and there are things you can do. But that’s not every case. We see folks who are well trained get shot because the person wasn’t trying to harm them. He (or she) was going to shoot them. Those aren’t the same thing.
And it certainly isn’t because Lo lacked a self defense mindset. I’ve had a gun pulled on me and wasn’t shot, not because I did or didn’t do something, but simply because the dude didn’t shoot me. It was as simple as that.
We had a tragic situation in the Seattle/Tacoma area in 2009 or 2010. Four officers were relaxing in uniform in a coffee shot and a dude shot and killed all four of them. Pulled out his gun and shot them. They caught the bastard a few days later, but that didn’t save these well armed, well trained cops.
OP
OP
If he was just sitting there and the guy shot him in the head then I would say that other than not going to the club that night there was nothing that he could have done to prevent it. But that's not the case. There was a confrontation that occurred in which a physical reaction was taken. This means there were other options that could have been taken. None of the articles I read said that Lo was attacked with the bottle so that means there was time for other things to be done.
Based on the articles, Lo simply tried to be the good guy and prevent a situation from being worse by using his BJJ skills.
He would have made a different choice had he not had those BJJ skills and the ability to fight.
The way I understand street fights is that I have to win in a way that doesn't escalate things after I win. I've talk many times about people losing in basketball, leaving, then returning to shoot the guy that was talking trash. Street fights are like this. If I fight then I have to think about what happens a after. Will the guy come back with a gun? Will his boys come back to get me? Will I make new enemies by beating one. The one thing that I have seen is that Ego is fragile. Destroy the body and the person won't return. Destroy the EGO and invite revenge. This is my understanding of fighting and aggressive confrontations. This is what my life experience has taught me. The same thing that happened here is the same thing that I teach in my self-defense classes.
OP
OP
I've had a gun pulled on me as well and I didn't get shot because I took the correct actions that day with the right person. Just because people have a gun doesn't mean that you don't have any influence on their decision to shoot you. People will sometimes let their mouth get them in more trouble then they would have been had they said nothing. If my actions can influence the violence that I receive then it can also influence the violence that I don't get. The guy waving the bottle influenced Lo's action. Lo have done the same action had the guy not waved the bottle around?
OP
OP
Not the same situation as Lo. Two different things. Getting shot out of the blue is not the same as the having a confrontation, taking the guy down, then getting shot by the guy that you just took down. Sometimes people are just in the right place for bad things. There's not much that can be done other than not showing up at the location. At that point things turn into the grace of God, gut feelings and luck.
There have been more times that I've been saved by something other than my own design.
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